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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 13:36
by bauc
Andres125sx wrote:Define defeat, then clarify what should manufacturers do after defeat
Harakiri?
Or trying to solve your problems and improve?
Do get smart with words now... what I meant is that Japanese, from what history showed us will keep pushing in one direction despite the obvious facts around them showing that is the wrong way to go. They want to do it on their own with out the help from the outside, therefore trust between Mclaren & Honda is not the problem here, its the concept of how the things should be done.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 14:16
by bigblue
I don't think things are so black and white, else there would never be any progress from any Japanese company that starts down the wrong path.
Recall there was a (rumoured) parallel internal development team investigating an alternative path, and this may well be the basis of the type of design they are switching towards.
There are also nuances around hiring from abroad which have been discussed before - loyalty / longevity of staff hired from abroad, 'in-house' company development / knowledge etc. So there are some points of principle that tend to make Honda lean towards internal development, but even then as far as I can see there is no blanket-ban on hiring from abroad. If I recall correctly, Mr. Arai has been quoted on saying this previously.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 15:17
by Serbian4ever
bauc wrote:Andres125sx wrote:Define defeat, then clarify what should manufacturers do after defeat
Harakiri?
Or trying to solve your problems and improve?
Do get smart with words now... what I meant is that Japanese, from what history showed us will keep pushing in one direction despite the obvious facts around them showing that is the wrong way to go. They want to do it on their own with out the help from the outside, therefore trust between Mclaren & Honda is not the problem here, its the concept of how the things should be done.
Honda wants to make something different then others, Honda always make their own path to success. At the beginning of Vtec development every one said that Vtec program will be fail and at beginning of development that engine wasnt good at all.
They introduced more then 30 new technology to make that engine most reliable engine.
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzmsUrvoug[/youtube]
For example in Moto Gp ther 500ccm NSR 2t was banned. 2 years ago Honda introduced seamless gearbox in moto gp.
Iam saying this that its very possible that Honda will make something new and totaly different then others...
Honda wont hire anyone from Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault because Honda always have different way. Believe me every failure for Honda is success and it is matter of time when they will be on top .
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 15:52
by bauc
@ Serbian4ever
I agree, but F1 is a different beast and those comparisons do not give the real picture. Anyway we went way off topic here.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 17:35
by PlatinumZealot
Honda need to get Jet ignition on their engine if they haven't already.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 18:05
by Sasha
Late last year a member of HRD asked his uncle(was on Gato engine team in 80's) to take a look at the Honda PU and write a review on it.After the Senior Engineers and Arias read his report,they asked him to come back to work on the PU.There are three other consultants on his team. Mclaren had nothing to do with this,europress just talking from their ass.
Because the 2016 PU was already design by the time they got there and the very little time before the season started,their ideas are not in todays PU.
And the token system is killing them this year.14 tokens is not enough for what is needed to be done.(secondary injection,bigger compressor and better ERS cooling)
The only thing Honda did wrong with the PU was taking the wrong path of size zero.(it cost them a year because of overheating problems.....still have some problems today and put a cap on performance with the compressor in the V)
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 19:03
by Andres125sx
bauc wrote:Andres125sx wrote:Define defeat, then clarify what should manufacturers do after defeat
Harakiri?
Or trying to solve your problems and improve?
Do get smart with words now... what I meant is that Japanese, from what history showed us will keep pushing in one direction despite the obvious facts around them showing that is the wrong way to go. They want to do it on their own with out the help from the outside, therefore trust between Mclaren & Honda is not the problem here, its the concept of how the things should be done.
I disagree, they do things their way, but that does not mean they´re so stubborn they cannot change development direction if wrong
Reading your reply it looks like no japaneese company can be succesful because they never get outside help, when it is exactly the opposite, in motorsports world Japan is a reference, for such a small country it´s amazing how many big companies they own, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Nissan, Toyota, kawasaki.... so their way to do things must not be that bad after all.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 19:03
by GoranF1
Sasha wrote:Late last year a member of HRD asked his uncle(was on Gato engine team in 80's) to take a look at the Honda PU and write a review on it.After the Senior Engineers and Arias read his report,they asked him to come back to work on the PU.There are three other consultants on his team. Mclaren had nothing to do with this,europress just talking from their ass.
Because the 2016 PU was already design by the time they got there and the very little time before the season started,their ideas are not in todays PU.
And the token system is killing them this year.14 tokens is not enough for what is needed to be done.(secondary injection,bigger compressor and better ERS cooling)
The only thing Honda did wrong with the PU was taking the wrong path of size zero.(it cost them a year because of overheating problems.....still have some problems today and put a cap on performance with the compressor in the V)
I know who the uncle is....
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 19:17
by f1rules
so its two years wasted, what a pity
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 19:52
by drunkf1fan
Sasha wrote:Late last year a member of HRD asked his uncle(was on Gato engine team in 80's) to take a look at the Honda PU and write a review on it.After the Senior Engineers and Arias read his report,they asked him to come back to work on the PU.There are three other consultants on his team. Mclaren had nothing to do with this,europress just talking from their ass.
Because the 2016 PU was already design by the time they got there and the very little time before the season started,their ideas are not in todays PU.
And the token system is killing them this year.14 tokens is not enough for what is needed to be done.(secondary injection,bigger compressor and better ERS cooling)
The only thing Honda did wrong with the PU was taking the wrong path of size zero.(it cost them a year because of overheating problems.....still have some problems today and put a cap on performance with the compressor in the V)
I'm never sure why people make statements like this, I'm fairly sure the same exact type of statements were made last year. At the time Honda had said that they knew what was wrong and how to fix it and people made the same claims as you. Absolutes, the only thing they did wrong was X because they know how to fix it and thus it will definitely work.
Except they thought that throughout 2014 and ended up with the 2015 engine. Then in 2015 they 'knew' how to fix it and apparently their design was fine but then we have the under powered 2016 engine. But again because someone supposedly says they know how to fix it, it's an absolute truth that the engine and fundamental design is fine and these ideas will certainly make it a good engine?
It was silly when people made such claims last year and just as silly now. The new guy may have great ideas and they might work, they could also be good ideas which they fail to implement correctly or they could be ideas that seem good but don't pan out at all. I said in response to the claims the engine was fixed last year that the engine will be good and fixed when it actually is fast and reliable, until then it's an idea and not at all proven.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 19:59
by Sasha
That is the only key word from everything you wrote. "implement"
The consultant team can only design the pre-chamber,injector,piston crown and TC but it is up to the HRD team to implement it correctly and in a fast timeframe.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 20:05
by godlameroso
They improved the engine, that much is obvious, if they raced the package they have this year last year they'd be fighting for the championship. That is how much the pace has improved, no matter what happens, the token system leaves Honda a year behind because they cannot develop the engine in a meaningful way.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 20:35
by Chicane
According to Hasegawa and Boullier's recent quotes to Auto hebdo the new power plant has much improved exhaust harvesting but as far as the outright power is concerned they are almost where they finished last year.
Today Jenson Button confirmed the same when he clearly mentioned that the deployment is much better now but as far as the outright power is concerned a lot of work is to be done. The last two tracks have clearly shown the lack of outright grunt.
Honda are running a very tight ship this year. Internal news are very hard to come by. Albert Fabrega has said Honda will be working on the intake and turbo first. Whether these are precursors to combustion upgrades we don't know. Honda have the resources and know how to bring a substantial upgrade so i am hopeful that we will see a big step at some point. The problem though is that the rivals aren't exactly standing still. Honda definitely have upgrades in the pipeline but one thing is fairly Clear that in terms of outright power output there hasn't been any significant gains over the winter. Hopefully they will put those 14 tokens to good use now that reliability and deployment issues have been sorted to a great extent.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 20:44
by namao
Chicane wrote:
Honda are running a very tight ship this year. Internal news are very hard to come by. Albert Fabrega has said Honda will be working on the intake and turbo first. Whether these are precursors to combustion upgrades we don't know. Honda have the resources and know how to bring a substantial upgrade so i am hopeful that we will see a big step at some point. The problem though is that the rivals aren't exactly standing still. Honda definitely have upgrades in the pipeline but one thing is fairly Clear that in terms of outright power output there hasn't been any significant gains over the winter. Hopefully they will put those 14 tokens to good use now that reliability and deployment issues have been sorted to a great extent.
Honda underestimated the 2014 hybrid regulations. They have te resources but that's not the key for win the championship. I don't see Honda at the top until 2018 or 2019.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Apr 2016, 20:44
by namao
namao wrote:Chicane wrote:
Honda are running a very tight ship this year. Internal news are very hard to come by. Albert Fabrega has said Honda will be working on the intake and turbo first. Whether these are precursors to combustion upgrades we don't know. Honda have the resources and know how to bring a substantial upgrade so i am hopeful that we will see a big step at some point. The problem though is that the rivals aren't exactly standing still. Honda definitely have upgrades in the pipeline but one thing is fairly Clear that in terms of outright power output there hasn't been any significant gains over the winter. Hopefully they will put those 14 tokens to good use now that reliability and deployment issues have been sorted to a great extent.
Honda underestimated the 2014 hybrid regulations. They have the resources but that's not the key for win the championship. I don't see Honda at the top until 2018 or 2019.