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livinglikethathuh wrote:Yeah, that makes sense. Why I think this is inefficient is that Honda is (to my knowledge) the only team that uses cylinder deactivation. Wouldn't other teams use this if they had no better use for the cylinders?


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I think they are all using it.

I think everyone will have this in their armoury, too.

Perhaps Honda is more likely than others to also use more aggressive measures than this, because their turbine is too small, due to the package. So they are desperate to keep that MGU-H working whenever they can?

The goal is not just to be efficient, it is to maximise performance within the two fuel flow limits (kg/hr & kg/race).

Sasha wrote:From HRD boss.

2 years away from winning.

This year will only be luck if on the podium,goal is points every race.

Next year goal is some podiums but always in the fight for podiums.

For next year Honda don't have any excuse, they have two years of testing and understand the formula, have the technical resources and the more important advantage, not a single stupid token.

To me the goal is too basic and not ambitious enough.

So apparently Honda is now the only manufacturer without TJI, or whatever trick they use to get a more complete mixture. The question is would implementing this alone be worth it? You probably couldn't get much out of it if you didn't have the proper turbo machinery to match the combustion efficiency such a system provides. With 11 tokens implementing a compromised inefficient version would probably be better than nothing if at least to see that the new concept works and not waste time next year.

Now that their exhaust energy recovery is pretty much par for the course the real Achilles which is the outright ICE output is standing out like a sore thumb. Honda have not made any significant gains on the internal combustion engine by their own admission since the end of last season and only fuel upgrades from Exxon Mobil have made some marginal improvements. Going by quotes from Hasegawa they do not have anything substantial on the dyno for introduction. Mercedes and Ferrari have taken another big leap since last year in terms of ICE output and the gap has only increased. With 12 tokens remaining do they want to do something about their current ICE or shift the focus completely on to next year is something only they can answer.

This is a quote by Hasegawa that muramasa at the Autosport Forums translated (much more over there, quite interesting to read).

Was taken after Canada :

we are seeing the effect of TC upgrade clearly on data, but that was not something that leads to race result. It was not to the extent that fuel saving is eliminated completely. Same as China GP, we are reminded strongly once again that this is what we are capable of atm. That means, it has become clear that the situation wouldn't change unless we improve fundamental performance of engine the ICE itself.

So i guess raw ICE Power is next on the Agenda. If their remaining Tokens are enough to make measurable gains remains to be seen though.

maguetox wrote:

Sasha wrote:From HRD boss.

2 years away from winning.

This year will only be luck if on the podium,goal is points every race.

Next year goal is some podiums but always in the fight for podiums.

For next year Honda don't have any excuse, they have two years of testing and understand the formula,

And Mercedes will have 4-5 years experience suplying 4-5 teams, so around 20x the data Honda will have


I´m curious about what Mercedes will do next season, they shouldn´t need any mayor change, but who knows.... Anycase you cannot assume Honda will catch up, because they surely will make a huge step forward, but the rest will not remain still

Even if the TC cannot provide the volume of air required to fully maximise the power potential of TJI, surely at the sub maximum power levels used during a race there will be an efficiency benefit. Lower fuel consumption equals lighter start weight equals better race performance. In addition, experience in using such a technology in race conditions will be valuable from a reliability and data gathering point of view.

Catch 22!!!

Improve CC then you need a whole new TC and every thing that goes with that(chassis,piping,coolers and aux changes).
They do not have the tokens to do that.
One of their hardest challenges was the advance compressor design.(there is no history/chart of what will happen with changes like a standard pancake style).That is why suppose performance upgrades wasn't happening on track.(only on paper)

My guess is they will do the new CC this year but do not expect much except better MPG and ER.(no fuel saving during the race)

Its funny because back in September 15 this was the accepted "truth"

Is Honda's hybrid system the engine's only problem?

Beyond the hybrid system's shortcomings, Honda's internal combustion engine (ICE) is also lacking compared to the best units from Mercedes and Ferrari.

By how much, however, not all agree.

Mercedes is said to have a significant advantage, just on the ICE, of 10-15bhp over Ferrari and as much as 50-70bhp over Renault.

Arai has said he believes Honda's ICE is in the region of 20-25bhp more powerful than Renault's. Other engineers say that the two are very close, that Honda was perhaps marginally ahead before an upgrade in July moved Renault back in front by about 25bhp.

So assuming that Honda now have sorted out their ERS (quote previously stated their system is as good as Mercedes) that should mean their PU is pretty much equal with Renault and maybe around 50bhp behind Mercedes.

There is no reason then that Mclaren should not be matching RBR for laptime.

Good to hear that Honda think they are sorted and even better to hear that they want to supply another team.

Mercedes probably got more mileage on their PU during pre season testing 2014 than Honda have had to date.

mrluke wrote:Mercedes probably got more mileage on their PU during pre season testing 2014 than Honda have had to date.

Mercedes engines did 17994km in 2014 preseason testing.

I wonder how many km Honda have covered since coming back to F1. Interesting query.

The ERS is nowhere near Mercedes. Maybe they can deploy full mgu-k for a full lap, just like the other teams, but at what costs? How much does the mgu-h need to harvest for a full lap ERS? What if Mercedes can harvest the same amount of energy with only half the backpressure of Honda?

That depends, I guess Honda believes teams deploy no more than 4MJ to the MGU-K over the course of a lap. Do you think Mercedes, Renault, and Ferrari deploy more?

godlameroso wrote:That depends, I guess Honda believes teams deploy no more than 4MJ to the MGU-K over the course of a lap. Do you think Mercedes, Renault, and Ferrari deploy more?

That's the 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap? There's still the unlimited amount from the MGU-H to the MGU-K that will considerably increase that amount depending on the track?

I assume around 60s WOT+Deployment is the benchmark for almost all tracks. Only Spa can almost reach 80s. So 7-8Mj total deployment?