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Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 05 Nov 2012, 15:58
by ubrben
raymondu999 wrote:Ben, I bow to you and JT on technical matters of the tyre.
But what I meant - and godlameroso - is that the tyre forced you to push, because if you were to drive at less than flat-out, the tyres would cool too much.
Probably the best way to do that is have a low resistivity tread - i.e. very thin.
Ben
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 17:03
by horse
I don't know how relevant this is, but the BBC's Gary Anderson suggested that this year's Spa spec tyre had a reduced gauge in order to dissipate heat better; he suggested was one of the issues with the current tyre.
It was interesting that Button had no issues getting this tyre working whereas he's not good at getting the "generic" 2012 tyre to warm up.
So, in conclusion, could Pirelli be reducing the gauge on the tyre?
Oh, Pirelli have confirmed the test of next years tyre at Interlagos:
Pirelli confirms F1 teams to trial 2013-spec tyres in Brazil
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 19 Nov 2012, 17:17
by horse
Well, while looking for a reference, I have contradicted myself:
Paul Hembrey wrote:We’ve reduced the tread gauge for the Belgian and Italian Grands Prix this year, which diminishes heat build-up and reduces blistering but accounts for the tyres taking slightly longer to warm up, particularly at Monza where downforce levels are extremely low.
Pirelli: Low degradation on a demanding track
[the face of a confused man]
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 19:57
by godlameroso
It's quite a tricky technical challenge to be able to make a tire that heats up quicker and also maintains it's grip consistency and wear when one goes above normal operating temperatures. The fact that once you go over the window the tire essentially shreds itself could be the reason the Mercedes has been so slow this year, and could see this car go up a few places on the grid with new tires that are more forgiving to overheating/driving.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 20 Nov 2012, 22:53
by Cam
Probably. The Pirelli experiment failed as the top teams again had the infrastructure to overcome the small operating window. This is exactly what they didn't want. The premise of the current tyres was to make the teams work to understand them. This takes money and time and focuses away from other car developments. The 2013 tyres should have an uber wide range so the rest of the teams can bolt them on and spend their precious cash and time on making the car faster, not trying to turn on tyres. It is a car race after all, not a rubber laboratory.
Look how far behind some of the teams are now.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 00:50
by Jersey Tom
Cam wrote:The premise of the current tyres was to make the teams work to understand them.
I don't recall this having been outlined anywhere.
Would go against the whole thing of them running a heavily instrumented car to help provide teams with data before either this season or last (not that I think that type of data is particularly valuable as a first step).
I think the teams "understand" a good bit about the tires as it is. To be blunt, I think they understand it's not as good a product as some previous suppliers.
I maintain that there are times when you cannot "just make it work" with your car. Team engineers can tweak car behavior, but the performance baked into the thing is what it is in large part. Can't force a square peg through a round hole.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 01:06
by Cam
Jersey Tom wrote:I don't recall this having been outlined anywhere.
Would go against the whole thing of them running a heavily instrumented car to help provide teams with data before either this season or last (not that I think that type of data is particularly valuable as a first step).
Guess I might have a different take on what Pirelli were doing with these tyres. If they supplied bog standard last forever tyres, that would make them easy to undertsand and to get performance from, but Pirelli never did that - so the opposite is true, isn't it?
SourcePirelli say their objective is to ensure entertaining races that remain unpredictable all the way to the chequered flag, with two to three pit stops per race, a strong emphasis on team strategies, and a less marked performance gap between compounds.
SourceThe idea behind the new tyres is to make the strategy options less obvious. Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery said: "We have had to make changes and the objective of those changes is to make the racing closer.
Source - stated in March 2012 after all uproar about not 'understanding' the tyresPirelli insists that there is no mystery to its 2012 tyres - and that teams fully understand exactly what they need to do to get the most out of the rubber.However, the Italian company believes the big fluctuations in form, and various struggles that some teams are having, are the result of those outfits not knowing how to get their cars working with the rubber.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 01:51
by Jersey Tom
Oh there's no mystery to them alright. I agree with that.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 03:46
by Cam
And looks like that philosophy is to continue into 2013:
"The difference (in tyres) from 2012 to 2013, however, will have a strong effect on the aerodynamics of the cars, and so the teams will have to work hard," the Briton is quoted by Totalrace.
Source
So we'll see the 2013 tyres designed to hobble the leaders (deja vu anyone), only to see the leaders spend more to master them, to then see more one stopping and running away again - leaving smaller teams unable to master the tyres...again. This method helps (arguably) the smaller teams for the first few races only, so it's a farce. Help the smaller teams, by all means, but it needs to work all year.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 12:38
by horse
Cam wrote:will have a strong effect on the aerodynamics of the cars
Sorry for being naive, but how will the new tyres effect the aerodynamics differently from the current set? Is the shape changing again? Or something dynamic, maybe?
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 12:46
by raymondu999
Deflection, shoulder shapes, construction... basically whatever shape the tyre takes (whether static, or at speed, or under load etc) will have effect. If next year's tyres have a different external shape under load, or in cornering, or whatever then it's already got an aero effect. Whether it's significant or negligible is another issue.
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 12:55
by horse
Thanks Ray. I haven't heard anything about the "shape" changing, remember that this year the tyres had squarer shoulders, so I guess this must be to do with the construction of the new tyres changing their characteristics under load compared to this year. Given that he said "strong" does that hint at a significant redesign, perhaps?
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 12:55
by raymondu999
Found it! Here you go:
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/95527.html
Paul Hembery has revealed that the 2013 Pirelli tyres will change the aerodynamics for the teams next season.
Pirelli is supplying two sets of prototype tyres for Friday practice at the Brazilian Grand Prix in order to give the teams an opportunity to gather some data around which to develop their 2013 cars. However, while Hembery said the regulations meant the cars themselves are not due to change too much, the new profile tyre will have an effect on the aerodynamics at the rear of the car.
"Well the cars at least this year are not going to change too much between this year and next year," Hembery told ESPN exclusively. "From that point of view we're hopeful of not having any big surprises and that I think for the teams is also a positive. Although we know that the changes we've made will have an influence on things like aerodynamics for the teams; it will deflect more, the rear tyre in particular."
Hembery added that he suspects some teams not chasing championship positions could focus on analysing the tyres fully on Friday.
"I think for the teams point of view it is an opportunity to gain a lot of data, and those who are maybe not competing for points or a position in the championship then will use that to take home as much data as possible."
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 12:59
by horse
raymondu999 wrote:we know that the changes we've made will have an influence on things like aerodynamics for the teams; it will deflect more, the rear tyre in particular.
.
That's very interesting. This will make the behaviour of the blown diffusers less predictable. A further narrowing of the field as a result?
Re: Pirelli 2013
Posted: 21 Nov 2012, 13:02
by raymondu999
I'm no tyre expert so I wouldn't know - but I'd suspect that tyre squirt might become more of an issue aero wise. If that were so - the teams with the better blown diffusers could be even stronger (relative to those without) because they'd be able to control and separate the effect of tyre squirt better (as they can use the exhaust gases to keep the tyre squirt away from the diffuser)