F1technical.net

tok-tokkie wrote:This claim in today's Guardian sounds preposterous to me but I would like to hear informed reaction:

The devices are thought to work by injecting more urea – an exhaust fluid – into the car when it is being tested. This limits nitrogen oxide emissions to a fraction of their usual level. The car detects it is being tested because devices such as the anti-collision systems have to be turned off when it is in the laboratory. The extra urea is not injected into the car when it is on the road because it would quickly run out.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... chael-horn

Where would that urea be stored & why has it not been picked up in all these years?

I work with diesel engines maintenance, and I doubt that they use a hidden urea (AdBlue) device to cheat the tests.
IMHO, they use different calibration for EGR valve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation
In order to pass the emissions test, the engine calibration software leaves the EGR valve more open and, as a side effect, the engine efficiency is decreased.

MadMatt wrote:

Tim.Wright wrote:That's far from confirming Porsche and Seat as being involved.

The original notice of violation only mentions VW and Audi. So someone is taking liberties here. You need to be careful who you quote in these situation to avoid spreading bullshìt...

Here is the notice of violation from the EPA:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents ... -18-15.pdf

Few of the sources I have:

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/1debad8 ... de_trucage

http://www.lematin.ch/economie/volkswag ... y/10195137

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/09/22 ... 75208.html

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/economie/volkswa ... 7779810214

http://www.rts.ch/info/monde/7105457-11 ... ucage.html

These are major newspaper/medias from Switzerland and France. Hardly me spreading bullshit unless medias are spreading bullshit themselves (which wouldn't be new), but then what.

None of these say the software is in Porsche or Skoda. Only that these companies are owned by VW. They are all sharing exactly the same quote:

"Des enquêtes internes ont montré que le logiciel en question était aussi présent dans d'autres véhicules diesel du groupe", selon un communiqué de Volkswagen, maison mère des marques VW mais aussi Audi, Skoda, Seat ou encore Porsche.

"Internal surveys have shown that the software in question was also present in other Group diesel vehicles," according to a statement from Volkswagen, the parent company of VW but also Audi, Skoda, Seat or Porsche.

...which is a loooooong way from stating:

MadMatt wrote:Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well.

Tim.Wright wrote:

"Internal surveys have shown that the software in question was also present in other Group diesel vehicles," according to a statement from Volkswagen, the parent company of VW but also Audi, Skoda, Seat or Porsche.

...which is a loooooong way from stating:

MadMatt wrote:Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well.

The statement directly points to the EA189 TDI engine.....

Which is used pretty much across the range from Audi, Seat, Skoda, VW. They all use the same engine technology, the question is now if any ECU is capable of getting those engines to meet the emissions laws without additional hardware (urea injection).

I am not aware of a 2.0TDI in a Porsche beyond the one that was raced in Lemons last year.....

Yes, and more source pointing at Skoda and Seat (Porsche not yet mentioned specifically here):

http://www.audipassion.com/2015/11-mill ... e-scandale

Some of the engines concerned:

1.6 TDI 75 ch (55 kW)
1.6 TDI 90 ch (66 kW)
1.6 TDI 105 ch (77 kW)
2.0 TDI 84 ch (62 kW)
2.0 TDI 105 ch (77 kW)
2.0 TDI 110 ch (81 kW)
2.0 TDI 140 ch (103 kW)
2.0 TDI 170 ch (125 kW)
2.0 TDI 177 ch (130 kW)
2.0 TDI 180 ch (132 kW)

Please keep in mind that this is only beginning of the story, probably more to come. For Tim that thinks I write bullshit:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/22/11m- ... stigation/

Porsche and Audi under proper investigation now, as VW boss will probably be dismissed this Friday:

http://www.cityam.com/224879/volkswagen ... -escalates

Come on, you know you your original quote was baseless. That's what I called you on.

If VW were doing this then other large car manufacturers knew about it (tear down and benchmarking groups would definitely have picked up on it).... the fact that none of them called VW out on it or reported them (I assume) suggests that they were/are doing exactly the same.

I think VW is just the tip of the iceberg

Tim.Wright wrote:Come on, you know you your original quote was baseless. That's what I called you on.

For Porsche, I would call this an extrapolation, yes. For Skoda and Seat, no.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-emissio ... lion-cars/

Come now, all the 2.0 VW Diesels are the same regardless of "make", which is the general idea of multibranding.

Believe me, this sh*t will grow and spread. I'd be surprised if not Mercedes and BMW will get cought as well.

Sixbarboost wrote:Come now, all the 2.0 VW Diesels are the same regardless of "make", which is the general idea of multibranding.

Believe me, this sh*t will grow and spread. I'd be surprised if not Mercedes and BMW will get cought as well.

There is probably a reason why the EU is changing to a "real world" test with actual driving on the road to measure emissions

There you go.

My view is the following; VW cleared the stipulared EPA-tests and there all there is to it, regardless of real world driving.

Compare with RBR who always cleared the FIA-tests for flexible wings and that was all there was to it, even if it was obvious.

I am aware that I will get downvotes for this, as I have learned how the voting works now, you downvote posts you don't like.

I imagine that the VW board is praying oh their knees now that they are not the only brand that cheated. If Mercedes, BMW, General Motors and Ford are cheating with their diesels as well, it might just be a big slap op the wrist for everybody. If it's only VW or maybe just VW and, for example, Fiat, they are in deep deep ---.

Sixbarboost wrote:My view is the following; VW cleared the stipulared EPA-tests and there all there is to it, regardless of real world driving.

Compare with RBR who always cleared the FIA-tests for flexible wings and that was all there was to it, even if it was obvious.

I am aware that I will get downvotes for this, as I have learned how the voting works now, you downvote posts you don't like.

I think, if you want to compare it to a sports event, this is a Lance Amstrong kind of cheating: next month, Piech at Oprah...

This should make the tests far more stringent and take into account the real world driving.

It's not the fault of VW. It's the fault of the people who create the rules.

Glyn wrote:This should make the tests far more stringent and take into account the real world driving.

It's not the fault of VW. It's the fault of the people who create the rules.

Precisely my point, any engineer worth his salt will adapt to the tests, just like Newey did to FIAs primitive vertical loading.