F1technical.net

Tommy Cookers wrote:

timbo wrote:

xpensive wrote: ........ batteries' capacity will taper-off with charging and discharge, some 1000 next-to-emptying cycles per race-weekend is a lot, isn't it?

Aren't they current limited? I.e. the batteries are not at their peak energy dencity, so they are not near full discharge? If so, the performance seems to hold well (when there's no full discarge).

even in normal full-cycle conditions battery life is only 1000 cycles
granted the mode of use in a race is relatively undemanding and will mask battery deficiencies
but surely they are being charged and discharged at very high rates (to minimise battery size and weight)
the only way round this life issue is to use much more battery, say 50-80 kg
which means they then throw away three times the batteries one third as often (as with road EVs)

Energy store must weigh no less than 20kg and no more than 25kg.

Holm86 wrote:Just a completely different question here.

Does anybody have a clue what is in the contracts between an engine supplier and the customer??
Im thinking do they have to give the engines back after they are used?? Or are they allowed to keep them?? Im thinking the first but im not sure.

I was wondering what is keeping Honda engineers from studying the Mercedes engine at McLarens factory during the whole 2014 season??

I'm pretty sure that they have to be given back, or at least most of them, for the purpose of wear and failure analysis. That would be pretty bad if Mercedes didn't take care of that with McLaren for 2014 in their contract. On the other hand, if the season doesn't go as they expected, there may be a few broken seals and grid penalties in their future...

Holm86 wrote:Just a completely different question here.
...
I was wondering what is keeping Honda engineers from studying the Mercedes engine at McLarens factory during the whole 2014 season??

The teams are not even allowed to start up the engines on their own, let alone to xamine them after the race.

xpensive wrote:

Holm86 wrote:Just a completely different question here.
...
I was wondering what is keeping Honda engineers from studying the Mercedes engine at McLarens factory during the whole 2014 season??

The teams are not even allowed to start up the engines on their own, let alone to xamine them after the race.

Okay. So they only use mock-up engines at the factory?? And then Mercedes delivers them at the races and take them back home again afterwards?? That would make sense.

Xcerpts from the 2014 Tech. regulations

1.22 Power unit :
The internal combustion engine, complete with its ancillaries, any energy recovery system and all actuation systems necessary to make them function at all times.

5.22 Replacing power unit parts :
Refer to the table in Appendix 2 of these regulations.
The parts listed in the table referred to above may be changed without incurring a penalty under Article 28.4 of the F1 Sporting Regulations. If changing any of these parts involves breaking a seal this may be done but must carried out under FIA supervision. Any parts changed may only be replaced by parts homologated in accordance with Appendix 4 of the F1 Sporting Regulations.

Can somebody help me interpret the above and "Appendix 2", ES are listed, can you change batteries without penalty or not?

I interpreted the table as the ES is part of the power unit and is included in the penalty stipulations for the whole power unit. It is a bit funky though, isn't it?

If that is the correct interpretation it makes no sense at all, that battery will be busted after 1000 charges/discharges.

Will no one run super capacitors??

Ask red bull what they use.
I think you will find it is not just batteries.

According to Scarbs, the 2009 Mercedes KERS system weighed 27kg in batteries from A123. In 2011, they quoted 24kg. Again, according to Scarbs, the Red Bulls did not fully utilize the KERS system and recovered only around 44kW instead of the maximum allowed 60kW. There was a post that suggested that RBR was running super-caps to help charge the battery, but I'm not sure if this was ever confirmed.

And what about the power unit weight ? the regulations state that the power unit must weight no less than 145 kg. AFAIK and according to my rough calculations:
-the batteries must weight no more than 25kg
-the MGUK and MGUH should weight less than 20kg together

that leaves 100kg for the V6 and its turbocharger, so if the turbi weights 25kg, do you think that the V6 can weight 75kg (20 less than the V8) ?

It seems reasonable that a 1.6 V6 should be significantly lighter than a 2.4 V8, like 75 vs 95 kg perhaps?

Somehow I have the feeling that the 2014 rules were not selected at random, rpm window, fuel-flow and weights.

Blackout wrote:And what about the power unit weight ? the regulations state that the power unit must weight no less than 145 kg. AFAIK and according to my rough calculations:
-the batteries must weight no more than 25kg
-the MGUK and MGUH should weight less than 20kg together

that leaves 100kg for the V6 and its turbocharger, so if the turbi weights 25kg, do you think that the V6 can weight 75kg (20 less than the V8) ?

I don't think the ES weight is counted in the power unit weight.

I have doubts too. The rules define the power unit as:
1.22 Power unit : The internal combustion engine, complete with its ancillaries, any energy recovery system and
all actuation systems necessary to make them function at all times.

Marmorini counts the ES weight within his '150kg', while Renault doesnt count it in the press kit they released in the 2014 engine presentation... (but they say their ES is 35kg... WTF)

And what about the cooling systems ? when I read this ''complete with its ancillaries...and
all actuation systems necessary to make them function at all times'' are the radiators etc included If the ES is not included, then may be does the V6 weight approximately 75kg with or without its rads

When reading, or at least trying to, these regulations, I often find myself confused and I'm pretty xperienced with things like that.

There must be clarifications issued over a number of things, the first thing I would ask is the replacement of batteries.