F1technical.net

Trying to piece together what’s allowed under this new TD it seems likely to be as complex if not more so than now.

As I understand it they are allowed to vary the ICE settings across the lap but any pattern must stay the same. I wonder how that will be policed?

I doubt they can use actual track position to manage it so maybe it will be a combination of road speed and engine speed. They could set up to have higher power/damage in lower gears and then short shift through them in the race, allowing higher power for longer in qualification.

Similarly I would think they might currently use fuel inefficient settings in hot charge situations during qualification to maximise MGU-H recovery. Given the importance of track position they might still use these, or a watered down version, and compensate in the race with lift and coast.

Add in an overtake button and I can’t see how this really reduces complexity much. And as a spectacle we’re now going to have ding dong battles between drivers managing both tyre life and engine life.

I find the operational complexity of these PUs fascinating. These changes prompt new questions about how they’re used. Good. But I fear they will make the racing even more processional.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 15:19

They'll just mash the overtake button during the qualy lap and claim the base engine map is the same as for the race.
Or maybe they want to ban overtake buttons too ?

They are not permitted to use the overtake button during quali

But are free to do so at the start, in/out laps and party-time during the race. So although it will make quali a little harder the engine wear saved from quali should allow their race Performance to be significantly boosted by its additional use

I know that Helmut Marko usually talks a lot of rubbish but in the latest AMuS piece he's being quoted with [my comments/additions in brackets] https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fo ... p-italien/

"It was very important for us that it would be banned [quali mode], we pushed for that ban heavily. The Mercedes quali mode is so extreme that it's essentially distorting competition [or in other words: unfair]. It's the authorities' [FIA's] responsibility to ensure that the races are balanced and exciting."

original: "Es war uns ganz wichtig, dass er abgeschafft wird. Da haben wir auch den nötigen Druck hinter gesetzt. Der Quali-Modus ist bei Mercedes so extrem, dass es schon wettbewerbsverzerrend ist. Es ist auch Aufgabe der Instanz, für ausgeglichene, spannende Rennen zu sorgen."

At least someone who isn't pretending this is about anything else than (from their and the FIA's view hopefully) slowing down Mercedes.

It would also appear that RBR must have been lobbying for a quali mode ban.

thanks Just_a_fan for figuring out the italics issue

RZS10 wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 14:19

I know that Helmut Marko usually talks a lot of rubbish but in the latest AMuS piece he's being quoted with added the parts in brackets

"It was very important for us that it would be banned [quali mode], we pushed for that ban heavily. The Mercedes quali mode is so extreme that it's essentially distorting competition [or in other words: unfair]. It's the authorities' [FIA's] responsibility to ensure that the races are balanced and exciting."

original: "Es war uns ganz wichtig, dass er abgeschafft wird. Da haben wir auch den nötigen Druck hinter gesetzt. Der Quali-Modus ist bei Mercedes so extrem, dass es schon wettbewerbsverzerrend ist. Es ist auch Aufgabe der Instanz, für ausgeglichene, spannende Rennen zu sorgen."

At least someone who isn't pretending this is about anything else than (from their and the FIA's view hopefully) slowing down Mercedes.

It would also appear that RBR must have been lobbying for a quali mode ban.

btw: why is the site making random parts of the text italic?? there's not a single in here

These are old comments from him
made when the FIA initally said about this ban before the spanish gp, if you go through this thread u can find it.

And Helmut Marko's word cant be taken seriously, he talks as if Honda doesn't have a party mode or the ban is only for Merc not them too

Well sh*t so i fell for the good old clickbait recycling

siskue2005 wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 14:34

And Helmut Marko's word cant be taken seriously, he talks as if Honda doesn't have a party mode or the ban is only for Merc not them too

Knowing him, this is probably exactly what he thinks!

henry wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 10:25

Trying to piece together what’s allowed under this new TD it seems likely to be as complex if not more so than now.

As I understand it they are allowed to vary the ICE settings across the lap but any pattern must stay the same. I wonder how that will be policed?

I doubt they can use actual track position to manage it so maybe it will be a combination of road speed and engine speed. They could set up to have higher power/damage in lower gears and then short shift through them in the race, allowing higher power for longer in qualification.

Similarly I would think they might currently use fuel inefficient settings in hot charge situations during qualification to maximise MGU-H recovery. Given the importance of track position they might still use these, or a watered down version, and compensate in the race with lift and coast.

Add in an overtake button and I can’t see how this really reduces complexity much. And as a spectacle we’re now going to have ding dong battles between drivers managing both tyre life and engine life.

I find the operational complexity of these PUs fascinating. These changes prompt new questions about how they’re used. Good. But I fear they will make the racing even more processional.

Odds on there will be a graphic on screen 'Driver using overtake button' Time left available 5, 4, 3. 2, 1- (falshing red) EMPTY.

Big Tea wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 14:54

henry wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 10:25

Trying to piece together what’s allowed under this new TD it seems likely to be as complex if not more so than now.

As I understand it they are allowed to vary the ICE settings across the lap but any pattern must stay the same. I wonder how that will be policed?

I doubt they can use actual track position to manage it so maybe it will be a combination of road speed and engine speed. They could set up to have higher power/damage in lower gears and then short shift through them in the race, allowing higher power for longer in qualification.

Similarly I would think they might currently use fuel inefficient settings in hot charge situations during qualification to maximise MGU-H recovery. Given the importance of track position they might still use these, or a watered down version, and compensate in the race with lift and coast.

Add in an overtake button and I can’t see how this really reduces complexity much. And as a spectacle we’re now going to have ding dong battles between drivers managing both tyre life and engine life.

I find the operational complexity of these PUs fascinating. These changes prompt new questions about how they’re used. Good. But I fear they will make the racing even more processional.

Odds on there will be a graphic on screen 'Driver using overtake button' Time left available 5, 4, 3. 2, 1- (falshing red) EMPTY.

As long as they don't try and do any hyper-cringey gimmicks like that god awful power boost thing they have (or had- do they still do it?) in Formula E.

henry wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 10:25

Trying to piece together what’s allowed under this new TD it seems likely to be as complex if not more so than now.

As I understand it they are allowed to vary the ICE settings across the lap but any pattern must stay the same. I wonder how that will be policed?

I doubt they can use actual track position to manage it so maybe it will be a combination of road speed and engine speed. They could set up to have higher power/damage in lower gears and then short shift through them in the race, allowing higher power for longer in qualification.

Similarly I would think they might currently use fuel inefficient settings in hot charge situations during qualification to maximise MGU-H recovery. Given the importance of track position they might still use these, or a watered down version, and compensate in the race with lift and coast.

Add in an overtake button and I can’t see how this really reduces complexity much. And as a spectacle we’re now going to have ding dong battles between drivers managing both tyre life and engine life.

I find the operational complexity of these PUs fascinating. These changes prompt new questions about how they’re used. Good. But I fear they will make the racing even more processional.

I think I am starting to buy into the idea that to some extent this new TD is aimed at curbing hardware changes disguised as reliability updates.

gruntguru made a good point a while ago when he suggested that with pre-chamber combustion the pressure rise rate is very high and results in extreme cylinder pressures. If I remember correctly the ignition had to be retarded to limit the maximum pressures for reliability reasons. Of course in doing so the thermal efficiency decreases as the thermodynamic cycle deviates further away from the ideal heat releases at constant volume.

My opinion is that all manufacturers can achieve very similar peak power figures, however the main difference is in how long the engine can run for in those conditions without the risk of failure. As such any so called reliability update is inherently a performance update. This was not a problem before when engine development was unlimited - it only became an issue when the restrictions were implemented on quite a short notice. In this case the TD related to qualy modes is a patch aimed at closing a loophole created by the newly introduced regulations restricting the PU development.

Unfortunately I don't believe this recent modes ban fully addresses the issue since there are still opportunities for teams to run the engine beyond its durability envelope. In my view FIA should ask manufacturers to provide histograms of cylinder pressure, engine speed and coolant temperature for the duty cycles used to validate engine durability on the dyno. PU usage at the track should then be monitored and not allowed to exceed the "homologated" duty cycle.

RZS10 wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 14:19

I know that Helmut Marko usually talks a lot of rubbish but in the latest AMuS piece he's being quoted with

"It was very important for us that it would be banned [quali mode], we pushed for that ban heavily. The Mercedes quali mode is so extreme that it's essentially distorting competition [or in other words: unfair]. It's the authorities' [FIA's] responsibility to ensure that the races are balanced and exciting."

original: "Es war uns ganz wichtig, dass er abgeschafft wird. Da haben wir auch den nötigen Druck hinter gesetzt. Der Quali-Modus ist bei Mercedes so extrem, dass es schon wettbewerbsverzerrend ist. Es ist auch Aufgabe der Instanz, für ausgeglichene, spannende Rennen zu sorgen."

At least someone who isn't pretending this is about anything else than (from their and the FIA's view hopefully) slowing down Mercedes.

It would also appear that RBR must have been lobbying for a quali mode ban.

btw: why is the site making random parts of the text italic?? there's not a single [ i ][ / i ] in here

If you look at your first line, you have used a square bracket with an i immediately next to it after "quoted with" and then the bracketed text isn't displayed but the remaining text is italic. I would bet that the system has interpreted that incorrectly.

Indeed, my first line is in italics because the system is seeing your "bracket i" and running with it because there is no close italic marker. I've added one at the end of my first line above and now this bit isn't in italics. Seems to be a bug in the software.

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 18:21

Seems to be a bug in the software.

That's for sure what that is.

I would howl if it turns out it hurts RB more than Merc.

A quote from Toto Wolff from Planet F1:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... rty-modes/

He continued: “I think it will hurt us in a certain respect because we have developed the engine to be really good in qualifying.

“It comes really close to its limit. I really need to take my hat off to everybody at Brixworth who made that engine.

“I think slowing us down is a little bit annoying because it somehow doesn’t give enough credit to the unbelievable job everybody has done at HPP (High Performance Powertrains), especially in respect of last year when we were pushed to the end of our power.

“But it is what it is. It [banned elements] has existed in Formula 1 for a quite a while. I remember Red Bull got the blown diffuser take off them. But we’ll take it as good sportsmen and still try to do a good job.”

Seems Asaki and Honda's assessment of Mercedes running right at the limit was true.

henry wrote: ↑

02 Sep 2020, 10:25

Trying to piece together what’s allowed under this new TD it seems likely to be as complex if not more so than now.

As I understand it they are allowed to vary the ICE settings across the lap but any pattern must stay the same. I wonder how that will be policed?

I doubt they can use actual track position to manage it so maybe it will be a combination of road speed and engine speed. They could set up to have higher power/damage in lower gears and then short shift through them in the race, allowing higher power for longer in qualification.

Similarly I would think they might currently use fuel inefficient settings in hot charge situations during qualification to maximise MGU-H recovery. Given the importance of track position they might still use these, or a watered down version, and compensate in the race with lift and coast.

Add in an overtake button and I can’t see how this really reduces complexity much. And as a spectacle we’re now going to have ding dong battles between drivers managing both tyre life and engine life.

I find the operational complexity of these PUs fascinating. These changes prompt new questions about how they’re used. Good. But I fear they will make the racing even more processional.

I read this in an article and and it seems like you are not allowed to vary the ice settings during the lap. But I don't know for sure if this is true or the interpretation of the author.

Starting on the Grand Prix of Italy, the teams have to drive with only one engine mode during qualifying and the race. In addition, the engine may only be scaled down during the race for reliability reasons. After that, the engine may not be returned to the higher setting.

https://f1lead.com/2020/09/02/helmut-ma ... al-for-us/

What is the likelihood of PU manufacturers adding a "charge" button to the steering wheel?

With a fixed PU mode, in normal use the SOC will be managed to keep within the 4MJ allowance per lap. If the driver uses the overtake, he will likely deplete the SOC more than he otherwise would in a normal lap. How else can he regain this without manually adding energy back in to the ES?