F1technical.net

rjsa wrote:

xpensive wrote:Right, things went a bit too far there.

Anyway, my point with the fuel-flow limit is that you can allow teams to run any engine they wish, plus you get an efficiency incentive.

An xample, when this is rather simple actually;

- One liter of gasoline holds some 34 MJ, which equals 34 kJ, or 34 kWs, per cc.

- Limiting the fuel-flow to 50cc per second, then means an input power of 1700 kW.

- A 25% engine efficiency would as a result give an output power of 425 kW or 580 Hp.

- The engine that can bring efficiency to 30% would jump output power to 690 Hp.

I'll have to stay with WB here.

If you limit energy flow, the optimum solution would be a something like a gas turbine running at optimum load and feeding a battery and an eletric drive system. Boring.

If you limit total energy used during race (total fuel amount) there is more room for variations.


Both cases would bring efficiency improvements.

I couldn't agree more too!

There's never been any argument a limited total fuel-load will provide the most savings, easy enough, just set the level you want.

But my point with the fuel-flow limit is that you can allow teams to run any engine they want, provided those are gasoline four-stroke piston engines obviously, plus you get a certain efficiency incentive the way I tried to show in my xample above.

The main problem I have with a total limit is that you will get strange economy-races where nursing your car home without running dry plays a part. That's what happened in the 80s anyway last time it was tried, kinda chicken-races really.

@ xpensive but how about widening it further and allowing any kind of powertrain only limited by the amount of energy per race so you could use a range of fuels, rotary engines, gas-turbines and whatnot? To keep the costs down someone already suggested homologating production-based engines with modifications.

xpensive wrote:There's never been any argument a limited total fuel-load will provide the most savings...

Edited some dots to show citation was abbreviated.

Glad to see you coming around.

xpensive wrote:The main problem I have with a total limit is that you will get strange economy-races where nursing your car home without running dry plays a part. That's what happened in the 80s anyway last time it was tried, kinda chicken-races really.

That is not very likely to happen often nowadays with the computer simulation and control that we now have. You already have the engines partly cut back with the rev limit. With a total fuel cap you get individual rev limits for the engine according to the respective engine efficiency. It would be a big incentive I think.

Pandamasque wrote:...how about .... allowing any kind of powertrain only limited by the amount of energy per race..? To keep the costs down someone already suggested homologating production-based engines with modifications.

In principle a good idea, but in practice it would level quickly to one type of engine again I think.

Sorry xpensive, i agree with WB, total fuel load would be the way to go.

010010011010 wrote:Sorry xpensive, i agree with WB, total fuel load would be the way to go.

Thanks for sharing.

xpensive wrote:

010010011010 wrote:Sorry xpensive, i agree with WB, total fuel load would be the way to go.

Thanks for sharing.

Anytime

modbaraban wrote:

Roland Ehnström wrote:Wouldn't this be rather interesting:

Rule #1: All drivers must start each race with a maximum of 150 litres of normal unleaded petrol (provided by the FIA).

Rule #2: No refuelling allowed during the race.

...and that's the complete rule-book! No restrictions on the engine at all, use whatever you want. Turbos is OK. Use KERS if you want, as much as you want. Just make sure you don't run out of fuel before the end of the race...

My thoughts exactly!

That plus the reduction of tank capacity from 150 downwards each season.
Plus allow diesels but with a different tank capacity limit (to make pertols and diesels level)

Yes and yes.

Actually now I think diesel is not enough. Add some E10, E85, E100, biobutanol, chip fat, hydrogen and cryptonite.

Diesel would cause a conflict between engine noise and the catalytic soot converter necessary for clean emissions.

Gosh WB must you overwhelm every thread that is of interest for you? This is getting out of control.

WhiteBlue wrote:Diesel would cause a conflict between engine noise and the catalytic soot converter necessary for clean emissions.

I'm okay with the vacuum cleaner-like sounding cars, if there are just a few of them on the grid, just for the sake of diversity.

diesel couldnot truly compete in F1 setting unless the rules were stacked up in their faver like the ACO has done.

and NA can never compete with turbo'd

You can wish for diversity all you want but there wil allways be 1 solution that dominates and all the teams will migrate to it... except for the ferrari spaghetti MISmanagement idiots who will stick to NA when turbo's are dominating or V-12's when V-10's are winning the championships, because of tradition.

Just put a limit on engine capacity and not in the number of cylinders. Maybe the majority of manufacturers will choose a I4 configuration but others like Ferrari would prefer something like V6 even if the first one is more efficient and less complex to begin with.

I remember Ferrari and its V12 from the 90's, when clearly V10 was the best option. But that spices up the show!

All the different potential engine specifications in F1 are controlled to final choice by the regulations at present in force.
Change the regulations and the ideal engine specification changes.
This is as near to a controlled formula as it can get without being actualy described as one. It is NOT what F1 should be and it is no use using over blown aero technology with little relevence to road vehicles as a diversion.

If F1 is to be seen as a high technology development formula then tight specification of engine must be dropped.
This is also needed so as to allow IC technology to reach its final peak of efficiency before its inevitable replacement by electric traction.

IMO the engine regulations should be made as fully open as possible within a safety and cost envelope. The neccesary restriction on excess speed to fit the circuits designs should be achieved by the simple addition of a set amount of fuel for the race distance. This can also be used to restrict aero by forcing a large reduction in drag.

All forms of energy recovery systems should also be open within a restricted chassis weight.