F1technical.net

Wazari wrote:

Andres125sx wrote:

restless wrote:Do we have idea how big was the difference in fuel efficiency between 2016 Honda and Mercedes?

Million dollar question

50 million dollar question.

It's "60 Million Dollar Question" as used in American movies

Wazari wrote:

Andres125sx wrote:

restless wrote:Do we have idea how big was the difference in fuel efficiency between 2016 Honda and Mercedes?

Million dollar question

50 million dollar question.

ahhh, I was simply trying to find out if Honda know how big the difference was , didn't look for exact answer

We can guess. I remember in 2015 when they showed fuel consumption the Mercedes would consume 1.3ish kg of fuel per lap of Silverstone, which would be enough for 77 laps if carrying the full amount allowed. Which means they could do Silverstone with about 78kg of fuel (conservative estimate just in case I'm dead wrong). Assuming they improved in 2016, I'd say they could have done the race this year with perfect conditions with more or less the same.

So let's say around 75kg for the race. I have no clue what the Honda consumed before or after the Spa upgrade as they stopped showing fuel consumption, but I'm guessing it's much closer to being filled to the brim, than Mercedes.

So purely guessing I'd say the Honda consumed ~.4 kg more fuel per lap pre Silverstone 2016. Which doesn't seem like much but is actually huge. That number may have come down to ~.2 or .26 after Spa.

restless wrote:

Wazari wrote:

Andres125sx wrote: Million dollar question

50 million dollar question.

ahhh, I was simply trying to find out if Honda know how big the difference was , didn't look for exact answer

Yes, have an excellent idea of the difference.

godlameroso wrote:We can guess. I remember in 2015 when they showed fuel consumption the Mercedes would consume 1.3ish kg of fuel per lap of Silverstone, which would be enough for 77 laps if carrying the full amount allowed. Which means they could do Silverstone with about 78kg of fuel (conservative estimate just in case I'm dead wrong). Assuming they improved in 2016, I'd say they could have done the race this year with perfect conditions with more or less the same.

So let's say around 75kg for the race. I have no clue what the Honda consumed before or after the Spa upgrade as they stopped showing fuel consumption, but I'm guessing it's much closer to being filled to the brim, than Mercedes.

So purely guessing I'd say the Honda consumed ~.4 kg more fuel per lap pre Silverstone 2016. Which doesn't seem like much but is actually huge. That number may have come down to ~.2 or .26 after Spa.

At Silverstone as with most races, 95 to 100 kilos of fuel on board, them a (5 to 15) less. Think about why lap times improved 2015 to 16.

In general or from the Honda McLaren?

Partly from the chassis, but I'm guessing this is maybe 30-40% of the overall improvement. Power unit wise, I'd say the most obvious improvement came from primarily improved ERS harvesting, and being able to deploy max ERS power over a longer period of the lap. However, the combustion engine is still at the heart of everything as the engine is not only powering the wheels but also generating electricity for the ERS. So if you generate more electricity, you have to sacrifice some engine power. So at a fundamental level, I'd say the real gain came from getting more power for the same fuel setting.

The Mercedes engine is at an incredible level then if you really think about it, probably can make the same amount of power as this year's Honda at max fuel setting on some more conservative setting. I understand the anticipation for next year, the big question being "have we raised our game enough?". You know you've made a big step, but are unaware of the steps the other's have taken.

godlameroso wrote:We can guess. I remember in 2015 when they showed fuel consumption the Mercedes would consume 1.3ish kg of fuel per lap of Silverstone, which would be enough for 77 laps if carrying the full amount allowed. Which means they could do Silverstone with about 78kg of fuel (conservative estimate just in case I'm dead wrong). Assuming they improved in 2016, I'd say they could have done the race this year with perfect conditions with more or less the same.

So let's say around 75kg for the race. I have no clue what the Honda consumed before or after the Spa upgrade as they stopped showing fuel consumption, but I'm guessing it's much closer to being filled to the brim, than Mercedes.

So purely guessing I'd say the Honda consumed ~.4 kg more fuel per lap pre Silverstone 2016. Which doesn't seem like much but is actually huge. That number may have come down to ~.2 or .26 after Spa.

Another 1 of my pet peeves....
F1 is happy to give us BS stats. One of the few useful stats we had, they got rid of.
I'd like to see some of those stats that Wazari spoke of analysing... not Just from McHonda but all teams.

I think F1 should gather all those stats, like Major league baseball showing all a batters tendencies.

People like we have here, love the sport and want to be closer to it. I'm sure we'd all drool over them. You'd see graphs left and right.

I think F1 should gather all those stats, like Major league baseball showing all a batters tendencies.

People like we have here, love the sport and want to be closer to it. I'm sure we'd all drool over them. You'd see graphs left and right.

That would be awesome! Its not like its top secret information as all the teams (I'm sure) have this data. It would just allow us to analyze/speculate more. Great idea!

diffuser wrote:I think F1 should gather all those stats, like Major league baseball showing all a batters tendencies.

When talking about preparing or making the most out of a show, nobody can dare to compare with americans. They´re true masters in that regard.

Any sport should learn from them, and F1 is far from an exception. Stats, onboard cameras, on-screen displays for live broadcasting with drivers names, gaps, etc, direct contact between fans and drivers.... I can´t think on a single aspect wich couldn´t be improved if imitating americans, well, except tracks, but even there they´re improving quite fast, COTA is one of my favourites tracks right now


Sorry for the OT

Those figures about total fuel per race make me wonder if the Mercedes engine has been designed to work under the 100Kg/hr fuel ratio ,(lets say 95 or maybe less). So instead of maximize the peak power at maximum rpm, they designed every single part to get the maximun efficiency along the wide band before 10k rpm . Then when they need power for a couple of laps, they push until 100Kg/hr and get a plus of 50 cv , but with a big stress for the engine. Does it make sense ?

I feel because F1 is all about imagery and sponsoship, more than viewership too much info; especially fuel consumption would be seen as libelous for the engine manufacturer who has the worst efficiency. That data would also serve as ammunition for the better engine maker to boast over his competitors outside of the arena in the road car industry. So i think it would be nice to know, but would be too damaging if we had too much engine data throughout the season.
I guess we can know after the formula has changed. That way it wont be in the spotlight to damage a brand.

Fuel consumption is connected to a lot of things though, especially tyre wear, traction, drive train loses, lubrication and aerodynamics. It will be hard to know how much is down to combustion itself.

Data isn't damaging.

We are slowly (very slowly in some industries) moving to a society where it is expected to share your data.

godlameroso wrote:In general or from the Honda McLaren?

Partly from the chassis, but I'm guessing this is maybe 30-40% of the overall improvement. Power unit wise, I'd say the most obvious improvement came from primarily improved ERS harvesting, and being able to deploy max ERS power over a longer period of the lap. However, the combustion engine is still at the heart of everything as the engine is not only powering the wheels but also generating electricity for the ERS. So if you generate more electricity, you have to sacrifice some engine power. So at a fundamental level, I'd say the real gain came from getting more power for the same fuel setting.

The Mercedes engine is at an incredible level then if you really think about it, probably can make the same amount of power as this year's Honda at max fuel setting on some more conservative setting. I understand the anticipation for next year, the big question being "have we raised our game enough?". You know you've made a big step, but are unaware of the steps the other's have taken.

McLaren Honda.

Sorry there's my Honda bias showing

Mahle's MJI patent with some interesting graphs. I'm actually amazed at the amount of pre-chamber design out there. Most though utilise compression to force the air/fuel mixture into the pre-chamber.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9353674.pdf