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Del Boy wrote: A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than with 2013’s KERS. That means drivers should have an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

What the rules say, is that 4MJ can be returned from the battery to the MGUK per lap.
If I read them right, they can use the MGUK permanent, if enough power is provided by the MGUH and it is built to last.

What I don´t understand is the provision on max. torque and rpm on the MGUK.

ecapox wrote:
sounds like some super trick stuff happening. I read this as, Engine cuts off, but because we are still making excess power outside of the 33 seconds stored, we will directly power the car without the need to use fuel. Hmmmmmmmm

I've been reading the regulations, and I think what they meant is that, by running the MGU-K straight from the MGU-H, without charging or discharging the battery, that power DOES NOT COUNT into the 33s / 4MJ they can use in a lap ( I did not know that!). So I think this is not about the trick engine cut-off system, but about the trick exhaust/turbo managing system.

That probably means that, when the driver is requiring max acceleration, since the fuel flow is restricted (and, as such, there is an optimum charge pressure, i think), they could tune it so that the MGU-H keeps the turbo at that speed, converting the rest of the turbine energy to electric and send it straight to the MGU-k, adding power that does not count to the limits! Interesting, to say the least. But I doubt other engine manufacturers have not done that already - the exhaust/turbo managing part, not the cut-off, which only Ferrari seems to be doing.

matt21 wrote:

Del Boy wrote: A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than with 2013’s KERS. That means drivers should have an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

What the rules say, is that 4MJ can be returned from the battery to the MGUK per lap.
If I read them right, they can use the MGUK permanent, if enough power is provided by the MGUH and it is built to last.

What I don´t understand is the provision on max. torque and rpm on the MGUK.

I'm guessing that is for cost control.

Also:
The MGUK can only return 2MJ to the ES per lap although it can take 4MJ per lap. The MGUH can supply the ES or the MGUK with no limitations other than the 160hp limitation on the MGUK.

I wonder if the electronic (not the MCU) is standardized or if the teams can develop their own charger/converter. And also if the battery must be as one big batter or if they can have two batteries.

Because with one battery you can or charge the battery or discharge not both. However if you have two of them, you can use one for charging and the second one for discharging or vice versa or you can charge bot of them or discharge both of them in parallel.

Renaults press release for their engine pretty much stated they will be able to directly drive the MGUK from the MGUH or send the energy to the ES. I don't think this is anything special that only Ferrari is doing.

dren wrote:Renaults press release for their engine pretty much stated they will be able to directly drive the MGUK from the MGUH or send the energy to the ES. I don't think this is anything special that only Ferrari is doing.

The flow scheduele in the regulations says its unlimited energy from MGU-H-->MGU-K and other way around, and its unlimited amount from MGU-H-->ES and other way around there aswell.

You guys seen this?

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener 6m

Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell admitted the turbo engines are able to deliver around 700 hp - without ERS. AMuS: http://ams.to/hS

So with the ERS that'll deliver 860hp. That's pretty incredible and could mean the 100hp more rumour flying about could be true...especially since Renault's Rob White admitted that they were getting around 600hp from the ICE unit alone.

Huntresa wrote:

dren wrote:Renaults press release for their engine pretty much stated they will be able to directly drive the MGUK from the MGUH or send the energy to the ES. I don't think this is anything special that only Ferrari is doing.

The flow scheduele in the regulations says its unlimited energy from MGU-H-->MGU-K and other way around, and its unlimited amount from MGU-H-->ES and other way around there aswell.

Yes, energy flow is unlimited but power at the MGUK is limited to 160hp.

dren wrote:Renaults press release for their engine pretty much stated they will be able to directly drive the MGUK from the MGUH or send the energy to the ES. I don't think this is anything special that only Ferrari is doing.

because it's not a "trick", is how those V6 are supposed to work.

vtr wrote: Not an Italian speaker, but I think it essentially means that Ferrari has found a way to cut off the fuel injection of the engine when off-throttle, or when the throttle butterfly valve is not open, without any reliability issues (fuel has been for some time part of the engine cooling system, the article says).

Fuel is always involved in cooling in a petrol engine. As the fuel enter the cylinder the heat make it evaporate, cooling the cylinder. The article says (i'm an Italian speaker) that Ferrari started the V6 project already with the idea of cutting off injection: they just need to wet the cylinder before torque is needed again. I suppose the engine has a more efficient/bigger cooling of cylinders to compensate. that's why imho other teams can't copy the idea just with some electronic changes

Mr.G wrote:I wonder if the electronic (not the MCU) is standardized or if the teams can develop their own charger/converter. And also if the battery must be as one big batter or if they can have two batteries.

Because with one battery you can or charge the battery or discharge not both. However if you have two of them, you can use one for charging and the second one for discharging or vice versa or you can charge bot of them or discharge both of them in parallel.

i think regulation prevent have 2 battery , it is one battery under fuel tank weight between 20 -25 kg . what Ferrari did is power from MGU-H is send to MGU-K without stored in battery .

bonjon1979 wrote:You guys seen this?

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener 6m

Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell admitted the turbo engines are able to deliver around 700 hp - without ERS. AMuS: http://ams.to/hS

So with the ERS that'll deliver 860hp. That's pretty incredible and could mean the 100hp more rumour flying about could be true...especially since Renault's Rob White admitted that they were getting around 600hp from the ICE unit alone.

Sorry, that's not what i get from this article. The first question is:

"AMUS: Wie stark ist der Verbrennungsmotor, wenn Sie in der Qualifikation volle Power erlauben?
How much power does the ICE have when run at maximum power during qualifying?

Cowell: Keiner wird eine genaue Zahl rausrücken. Alles dreht sich um thermische Effizienz. Der alte V8 war zu 30 Prozent thermisch effizient. Wir wollen auf 40 Prozent mit den neuen Motoren kommen.
No team will publish exact figures, but thermal efficiency is king. The old V8 had an efficiency of 30%, we want to reach 40% with the new engines.

AMUS: Lassen Sie uns folgende Rechnung wagen: Vor 30 Jahren gab es aus 1,5 Liter Hubraum bei fünf bar und 200 Kilogramm Sprit pro Stunde Spitzenleistungen von bis zu 1.400 PS. Da müssten bei halb so viel Benzin pro Stunde ohne den Beitrag des Elektromotors doch 700 PS drin sein?
Let's do the following calculation/estimation: 30 years ago with 1,5l displacement, at 5bar turbo pressure and 200kg/h fuel you could achieve peak powers of 1400hp. With half the fuel flow allowed in 2014 the ICE alone should make 700hp?

Cowell: Korrekt. So kann man rechnen.
Yes, that's how you can calculate/estimate."

For me the first question/answer tells much more than the second, as an efficiency target of 40% and 100kg/h fuel translates to

100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp

as an upper limit, assumed they do not use fuel with an energy content of 46MJ/kg or more. The second question sounds like a leading question to me. I wouldn't take this as a sign that Mercedes achieves 700hp from the ICE without the MGUH and MGUK.

Blanchimont wrote:

bonjon1979 wrote:You guys seen this?

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener 6m

Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell admitted the turbo engines are able to deliver around 700 hp - without ERS. AMuS: http://ams.to/hS

So with the ERS that'll deliver 860hp. That's pretty incredible and could mean the 100hp more rumour flying about could be true...especially since Renault's Rob White admitted that they were getting around 600hp from the ICE unit alone.

Sorry, that's not what i get from this article. The first question is:

"AMUS: Wie stark ist der Verbrennungsmotor, wenn Sie in der Qualifikation volle Power erlauben?
How much power does the ICE have when run at maximum power during qualifying?

Cowell: Keiner wird eine genaue Zahl rausrücken. Alles dreht sich um thermische Effizienz. Der alte V8 war zu 30 Prozent thermisch effizient. Wir wollen auf 40 Prozent mit den neuen Motoren kommen.
No team will publish exact figures, but thermal efficiency is king. The old V8 had an efficiency of 30%, we want to reach 40% with the new engines.

AMUS: Lassen Sie uns folgende Rechnung wagen: Vor 30 Jahren gab es aus 1,5 Liter Hubraum bei fünf bar und 200 Kilogramm Sprit pro Stunde Spitzenleistungen von bis zu 1.400 PS. Da müssten bei halb so viel Benzin pro Stunde ohne den Beitrag des Elektromotors doch 700 PS drin sein?
Let's do the following calculation/estimation: 30 years ago with 1,5l displacement, at 5bar turbo pressure and 200kg/h fuel you could achieve peak powers of 1400hp. With half the fuel flow allowed in 2014 the ICE alone should make 700hp?

Cowell: Korrekt. So kann man rechnen.
Yes, that's how you can calculate/estimate."

For me the first question/answer tells much more than the second, as an efficiency target of 40% and 100kg/h fuel translates to

100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp

as an upper limit, assumed they do not use fuel with an energy content of 46MJ/kg or more. The second question sounds like a leading question to me. I wouldn't take this as a sign that Mercedes achieves 700hp from the ICE without the MGUH and MGUK.

thanks blanchimont i was going off the tweet, good to have the detail.

dren wrote:

Huntresa wrote:

dren wrote:Renaults press release for their engine pretty much stated they will be able to directly drive the MGUK from the MGUH or send the energy to the ES. I don't think this is anything special that only Ferrari is doing.

The flow scheduele in the regulations says its unlimited energy from MGU-H-->MGU-K and other way around, and its unlimited amount from MGU-H-->ES and other way around there aswell.

Yes, energy flow is unlimited but power at the MGUK is limited to 160hp.

Ofc its limited at 160HP, also on using 4MJ but only harvesting 2MJ, while rest is unlimited as stated above.

Blanchimont wrote:

bonjon1979 wrote:You guys seen this?

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener 6m

Mercedes engine chief Andy Cowell admitted the turbo engines are able to deliver around 700 hp - without ERS. AMuS: http://ams.to/hS

So with the ERS that'll deliver 860hp. That's pretty incredible and could mean the 100hp more rumour flying about could be true...especially since Renault's Rob White admitted that they were getting around 600hp from the ICE unit alone.

Sorry, that's not what i get from this article. The first question is:

"AMUS: Wie stark ist der Verbrennungsmotor, wenn Sie in der Qualifikation volle Power erlauben?
How much power does the ICE have when run at maximum power during qualifying?

Cowell: Keiner wird eine genaue Zahl rausrücken. Alles dreht sich um thermische Effizienz. Der alte V8 war zu 30 Prozent thermisch effizient. Wir wollen auf 40 Prozent mit den neuen Motoren kommen.
No team will publish exact figures, but thermal efficiency is king. The old V8 had an efficiency of 30%, we want to reach 40% with the new engines.

AMUS: Lassen Sie uns folgende Rechnung wagen: Vor 30 Jahren gab es aus 1,5 Liter Hubraum bei fünf bar und 200 Kilogramm Sprit pro Stunde Spitzenleistungen von bis zu 1.400 PS. Da müssten bei halb so viel Benzin pro Stunde ohne den Beitrag des Elektromotors doch 700 PS drin sein?
Let's do the following calculation/estimation: 30 years ago with 1,5l displacement, at 5bar turbo pressure and 200kg/h fuel you could achieve peak powers of 1400hp. With half the fuel flow allowed in 2014 the ICE alone should make 700hp?

Cowell: Korrekt. So kann man rechnen.
Yes, that's how you can calculate/estimate."

For me the first question/answer tells much more than the second, as an efficiency target of 40% and 100kg/h fuel translates to

100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp

as an upper limit, assumed they do not use fuel with an energy content of 46MJ/kg or more. The second question sounds like a leading question to me. I wouldn't take this as a sign that Mercedes achieves 700hp from the ICE without the MGUH and MGUK.

I agree. To me it also just sounds like he is saying "yes with half the fuel you should be able to make half the power". This though doesn't mean that the first calculation of 1400hp with 200 Kg/H is correct.