F1technical.net

I think Honda need to assist the turbo that much because is wick by being placed in the V of the engine hope next year bigger turbo don't need that much assist.

A bigger turbo would need more assistance...

ringo wrote:It's pretty cool how the MGUs are synced with the gear changes so precisely. Especially the MGUH. I was expecting it to just be doing its own thing, since it's not mechanically coupled to the drive-train.
It may well be manipulating the compressor during gear changes, and possible the engine's back pressure.

what we are seeing may well be in effect low-pass filtered ie what the ES 'sees' - and/or otherwise filtered by presentational practicalities
the MG drive systems will have a float of (capacitively stored) energy onboard for their own functional needs
this float (for and from momentary energy events) being that not transferred to or from the ES

ie during shifts there may be much briefer MU-H GU-H MU-K and GU-K actions that we are not seeing
the (geared) MGU-K response during shifts will presumably be as fast as possible (a few tens of milliseconds) ie comparable to the bare ICE's
to minimise the period of PU output torque reduction needed for tolerably smooth shifts
the MGU-H response might well be faster ie during shifts it could be doing interesting things

I expect control of the MGUK during shifts would be programmed to arrive at the required compressor speed (and therefore boost) by the time the next gear starts driving.

I always wondered if the MGUs are fast enough to switch between harvesting and deploying in order to create throttle response with less "noise" that comes with brief compressor overboost, creep, or surge during gear changes or throttle modulation, or brief on and off throttle instances. The fact that they use a blow off valve on the intake, and wastegate on the exhaust leads me to believe that they actively try to control these phenomena. The telemetry hints that they could be using the MGUs as torque filtering, whether it's conductive to better harvesting I guess every little bit counts.

Sasha wrote:

Abarth wrote:

Sasha wrote:Honda past history......when they release their Racing Engine specs/data.....that means they are done with it(design).
So that means the 2017 PU is 100% new design.

Possibly so...

But that still doesn't invalidate many insights, some of them in the telemetry data. They obviously think that their competition uses the MGU's similarly and had no fear to publish it for the technically interested people. I applaud them for that.
We now can see (and confirm what some here have already stated) the MGU-H operation in race and qualification, and also the confirmation that MGU-K is used to increase load and charge the ES during part load operation.

Sorry but everybody knew that(or had educated guess) from day one.The big secrets in 2014-2015 was the pre-chamber/trick injectors and MGU-H direct to MGU-K(bypassing the battery)...only MB got all those right from day one.Everybody will have it in 2017.

Sasha, I don't know about Mercedes, but the honda graphs show that they prefer MGUH to Energy store more than MGUH to MGUK directly. I think Hasegawa confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the MGUH is seen as "Thin and long" (As in lower power density that can be provided over a long period) and the battery as "Thick and short/long" ability to provide full 160hp in short bursts (or long burst). Honda found using the stronger bursts of power to produce quicker (or more efficient?) laptime so their main stragetyfor the MGUH is to use it to charge the batteries, and then use that energy for the MGUK at strategic parts of the lap.


Did anyone calculate the MGUH output from the graphs?

You can see the zero output datum easily, and the 160hp plateau easily too. The MGUH seems to be able to have a soft limit of 75hp. Probably set for best reliability reasons. Then you see it spike a few times up to about 100hp at lower rpms. So I guess that's the current powers of Honda's MGUH. up to 100hp (75kw) allowable.

Even more interestingly there are a few tiny negative spikes too. What is happening in those parts?

PlatinumZealot wrote:

Sasha wrote:

Abarth wrote: Possibly so...

But that still doesn't invalidate many insights, some of them in the telemetry data. They obviously think that their competition uses the MGU's similarly and had no fear to publish it for the technically interested people. I applaud them for that.
We now can see (and confirm what some here have already stated) the MGU-H operation in race and qualification, and also the confirmation that MGU-K is used to increase load and charge the ES during part load operation.

Sorry but everybody knew that(or had educated guess) from day one.The big secrets in 2014-2015 was the pre-chamber/trick injectors and MGU-H direct to MGU-K(bypassing the battery)...only MB got all those right from day one.Everybody will have it in 2017.

Sasha, I don't know about Mercedes, but the honda graphs show that they prefer MGUH to Energy store more than MGUH to MGUK directly. I think Hasegawa confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the MGUH is seen as "Thin and long" (As in lower power density that can be provided over a long period) and the battery as "Thick and short/long" ability to provide full 160hp in short bursts (or long burst). Honda found using the stronger bursts of power to produce quicker (or more efficient?) laptime so their main stragetyfor the MGUH is to use it to charge the batteries, and then use that energy for the MGUK at strategic parts of the lap.

Mr. PZ, you are correct. If Mercedes has a MGU-H to CE to MGU-K direct path, that must mean they are getting tremendous output from their MGU-H.

Wazari wrote:Mr. PZ, you are correct. If Mercedes has a MGU-H to CE to MGU-K direct path, that must mean they are getting tremendous output from their MGU-H.

Is it not possible to add battery energy too at the same time?

i.e. MGUH (whatever possible)+ES(for the balance required for full K power)>>CE>>MGUK for the full 160HP

Wazari wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:

Sasha wrote:
Sorry but everybody knew that(or had educated guess) from day one.The big secrets in 2014-2015 was the pre-chamber/trick injectors and MGU-H direct to MGU-K(bypassing the battery)...only MB got all those right from day one.Everybody will have it in 2017.

Sasha, I don't know about Mercedes, but the honda graphs show that they prefer MGUH to Energy store more than MGUH to MGUK directly. I think Hasegawa confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the MGUH is seen as "Thin and long" (As in lower power density that can be provided over a long period) and the battery as "Thick and short/long" ability to provide full 160hp in short bursts (or long burst). Honda found using the stronger bursts of power to produce quicker (or more efficient?) laptime so their main stragetyfor the MGUH is to use it to charge the batteries, and then use that energy for the MGUK at strategic parts of the lap.

Mr. PZ, you are correct. If Mercedes has a MGU-H to CE to MGU-K direct path, that must mean they are getting tremendous output from their MGU-H.

Yes they are.(MB)

Look at picture.
first is the top power is 120kw only in short moments.
117kw is the more time deployed.
and the MUGh power is around 80kw the power supposed here.

FW17 wrote:

Wazari wrote:Mr. PZ, you are correct. If Mercedes has a MGU-H to CE to MGU-K direct path, that must mean they are getting tremendous output from their MGU-H.

Is it not possible to add battery energy too at the same time? ..........

in principle surely yes, and you'd be crazy not to do this ? - can someone remind us of the K runtimes at 120 kW available within the laptime energy limits ?
(send much of your full lap entitlement of MGU-H generated energy to ES so that bag of energy could be used at the most laptime-efficient times)

so we agree that anyone using a direct (real-time) feed of GU-H energy to MU-K action must have available a helluva lot of GU-H energy/lap ?
and this must have been obtained without corresponding sacrifice of crankshaft (ICE) power ie due to backpressure

so does this party (ie MB) exist ? ....... and how do we know this ?
(though posts I made 3 years ago claim this is possible, based on findings by the NACA around 1942)

godlameroso wrote:I always wondered if the MGUs are fast enough to switch between harvesting and deploying in order to create throttle response with less "noise" that comes with brief compressor overboost, creep, or surge during gear changes or throttle modulation, or brief on and off throttle instances. The fact that they use a blow off valve on the intake, and wastegate on the exhaust leads me to believe that they actively try to control these phenomena. The telemetry hints that they could be using the MGUs as torque filtering, whether it's conductive to better harvesting I guess every little bit counts.

the MGUs can be swept electrically from eg 'full' generation condition to 'full' motoring condition in a few millisec - called the electromagnetic time constant
if they had no inertia the torque loading the turbo shaft or crankshaft would faithfully follow this
but their inertias/ICE-referred inertias limit corresponding torque input/output response to be a few tens of millisec - electromechanical time constant
with the H there seems to be evidence of the rotational energy being bled down for generation, but with some overshoot and correction

Wazari wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:

Sasha wrote:
Sorry but everybody knew that(or had educated guess) from day one.The big secrets in 2014-2015 was the pre-chamber/trick injectors and MGU-H direct to MGU-K(bypassing the battery)...only MB got all those right from day one.Everybody will have it in 2017.

Sasha, I don't know about Mercedes, but the honda graphs show that they prefer MGUH to Energy store more than MGUH to MGUK directly. I think Hasegawa confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the MGUH is seen as "Thin and long" (As in lower power density that can be provided over a long period) and the battery as "Thick and short/long" ability to provide full 160hp in short bursts (or long burst). Honda found using the stronger bursts of power to produce quicker (or more efficient?) laptime so their main stragetyfor the MGUH is to use it to charge the batteries, and then use that energy for the MGUK at strategic parts of the lap.

Mr. PZ, you are correct. If Mercedes has a MGU-H to CE to MGU-K direct path, that must mean they are getting tremendous output from their MGU-H.

But in Honda's case the energy from the MGU-H to the MGU-K via the ES is limited to 4MJ - [mechanical energy recovered from braking] right? What is Honda doing with the rest of the MGU-H recovered energy (which can be as high as 5-6MJ based on Magneti Marelli data if I'm correct), or are they just not recovering that much?

Edit: Let's assume a track with one minute (60 seconds) full throttle and an MGU-K braking recovery of 1,5MJ (limit is 2MJ, but we know this is almost never achieved). Then Honda's MGU-H to MGU-K via the ES is limited to 4-1,5=2,5MJ, which means an MGU-H power of 2,5e6/60=41,7kW. Isn't this way too less compared with the assumed Mercedes/Ferrari power of 80-90kW?

PlatinumZealot wrote:

Something is not correct in this. In fully open throttle sections, engine speed varies a lot including decreasing.

vinuneuro wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:

Sasha wrote:

Something is not correct in this. In fully open throttle sections, engine speed varies a lot including decreasing.

If the MGU-k disengages, that will happen. Or in an uphill.