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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 19 Aug 2021, 11:42
by hollus
In case anyone missed it, 3 pages of posts, almost every post over 4 days, have been deleted. It all focussed largely on global politics.
The rule is simple, no politics unless strictly needed for the topic, and even then as little as possible.
It is affecting many threads, to the point that it appears systematic and on purpose, so repeated offenders beware.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 28 Aug 2021, 05:09
by sp8472
Nothing like the vegan debate to kill an interesting thread.
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 28 Aug 2021, 21:01
by mzso
sp8472 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2021, 05:09
Nothing like the vegan debate to kill an interesting thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why would the thread be killed, there's just not much to talk about the actual engines until they trickle some information.
Not sure what was so political either. The conversation drifted a tad off topic to fuels, then bio-fuels and then the farming for it.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 29 Aug 2021, 07:19
by wuzak
Is there a role for synthetic fuels created from extracted from atmospheric CO2?
Expensive to make, but in the limited quantities that F1 need would be OK?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 29 Aug 2021, 10:00
by mzso
wuzak wrote: ↑29 Aug 2021, 07:19
Is there a role for synthetic fuels created from extracted from atmospheric CO2?
Expensive to make, but in the limited quantities that F1 need would be OK?
Yeah, but F1 wants to be relevant. Or at least credibly pretend to be so.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 29 Aug 2021, 10:01
by mclaren111
sp8472 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2021, 05:09
Nothing like the vegan debate to kill an interesting thread.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 04 Sep 2021, 10:11
by NL_Fer
Heard rumour yesterday that teams are discussing a stronger mgu-k for next season already. Development has lead to a much stronger unit with the same weight and size than current ‘14 Spec.
It strengthens my believe, that manufacturers recognize the importance of internal combustion, but are unwilling to spend much money a development for a brand new ICE component. Probably, they want to keep the 1.6 V6 and convert it to synth fuel only.
Improvement of battery and mgu-k is the only change we will see maybe.
So my current speculation for 2025-2030:
1.6 V6 ICE
MGU-H + Single Turbocharger
200 kw MGU-K
12MJ ES
100kg/hr fuel flow limiter with an adjusted curve to compensate the stronger mgu-k
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 04 Sep 2021, 12:00
by mzso
NL_Fer wrote: ↑04 Sep 2021, 10:11
Heard rumour yesterday that teams are discussing a stronger mgu-k for next season already. Development has lead to a much stronger unit with the same weight and size than current ‘14 Spec.
I very highly doubt that. Changing it with only one specification remaining before the freeze? That would be nuts...
NL_Fer wrote: ↑04 Sep 2021, 10:11
It strengthens my believe, that manufacturers recognize the importance of internal combustion, but are unwilling to spend much money a development for a brand new ICE component.
And what importance would that be?
Also, unwilling to spend on development suggests exactly the opposite. Treating the ICE like baggage with the minimum amount of effort.
NL_Fer wrote: ↑04 Sep 2021, 10:11
Probably, they want to keep the 1.6 V6 and convert it to synth fuel only.
Seeing that the FIA boldly made a press release about a bio-fuel they developed that's supposed to be made from otherwise unutilized waste, I highly doubt synthetic fuel is even considered at this point.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 00:45
by NL_Fer
Apparently there was another meeting this weekend. It seems Redbull, VW (and Williams?) want to ban the MGU-H now and the others (Merc, Fer, Renault and Honda!) are going along with it.
An new hybrid powerunit with KERS on both axle (with or without 4wd) would make a new powerunit from scratch much cheaper. Which favours a new manufacturer like VW and RPT. Another rumour is that VW will be a supplier for Redbull and Williams and RPT’s facilities will be transferred to VW.
My opinion, for a long time, was that any ERS would need an MGU-H, because it supplied about 4-5 MJ of energy each lap and makes the overall ERS much more effective. Front axle recovery can only provide 2-3 MJ and add more weight.
But I forgot one thing. The weight-to-power of the MGU-K and Battery has lowered significantly and could be even lower in 2026, while power output could increase because of the development in efficiency.
So it the new system could be:
I4 or V6 ICE - 550bhp
Conventional Turbocharger
Sustainable fuel
Front axle recovery only - 200kw
Rear axle MGU - 200kw
Such a system could supply 30 seconds of ERS deployment per lap. Road relevant tech and sound better.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 01:27
by Zynerji
NL_Fer wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 00:45
Apparently there was another meeting this weekend. It seems Redbull, VW (and Williams?) want to ban the MGU-H now and the others (Merc, Fer, Renault and Honda!) are going along with it.
An new hybrid powerunit with KERS on both axle (with or without 4wd) would make a new powerunit from scratch much cheaper. Which favours a new manufacturer like VW and RPT. Another rumour is that VW will be a supplier for Redbull and Williams and RPT’s facilities will be transferred to VW.
My opinion, for a long time, was that any ERS would need an MGU-H, because it supplied about 4-5 MJ of energy each lap and makes the overall ERS much more effective. Front axle recovery can only provide 2-3 MJ and add more weight.
But I forgot one thing. The weight-to-power of the MGU-K and Battery has lowered significantly and could be even lower in 2026, while power output could increase because of the development in efficiency.
So it the new system could be:
I4 or V6 ICE - 550bhp
Conventional Turbocharger
Sustainable fuel
Front axle recovery only - 200kw
Rear axle MGU - 200kw
Such a system could supply 30 seconds of ERS deployment per lap. Road relevant tech and sound better.
I dunno. You make good arguments, but I think it's going to be something like:
1.6l ICE
Single downsized MGUH Turbo w/bypass for noise.
AWDKERS
60L bio fuel tank/upsized battery
No flow limit/rpm cap @17000
6 homologated engines/ car/year
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 02:16
by mzso
Zynerji wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 01:27
I dunno. You make good arguments, but I think it's going to be something like:
1.6l ICE
Single downsized MGUH Turbo w/bypass for noise.
AWDKERS
60L bio fuel tank/upsized battery
No flow limit/rpm cap @17000
6 homologated engines/ car/year
Looks like youir wishes rather than something borderline probable. The last two in particular.
NL_Fer wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 00:45
So it the new system could be:
I4 or V6 ICE - 550bhp
Conventional Turbocharger
Sustainable fuel
Front axle recovery only - 200kw
Rear axle MGU - 200kw
Such a system could supply 30 seconds of ERS deployment per lap. Road relevant tech and sound better.
It might be true, though I fail to see any road relevancy.
I will be sad to see cars supplied with electromechanical devices, that are only used as generators and would be dead weight some 95% of the time
By the wa.y, was anything released about the FIA's super mysterious fuel and production process?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 09:42
by garrett
Facing the Monza deadline, there obviously has been some movement behind the curtain. There is another meeting on Sunday. As a m & s reports, it looks like the expensive and overcomplicated MGU-H will be sacked from 2026 onwards, as Mercedes and Renault have abandoned their opposition. Also, the number of cylinder should be no issue any more, so a standardized V6 block is probable. Also, increased recuperation up to 450 kW also including the front axe still is on the agenda.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... hne-mgu-h/
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 10:53
by mzso
garrett wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 09:42
expensive and overcomplicated MGU-H will be sacked from 2026 onwards, as Mercedes and Renault have abandoned their opposition.
It smells like bullshit. The H is nothing but an electric motor on a shaft, that has already been developed. Granted, how you utilize it to recover and the power it recovers and to spin the turbo to reach optimal performance is not trivial, but they had the past 7 years to optimize that. Nothing to spend there either.
So what does throwing it out actually gains? I come up empty.
It will bring back turbo lag, which is a regression. It will certainly make the PU less efficient, which goes completely against their claimed goals....
It's kind of surprising that Ferrari is okay with it. Their ICE is the worst since cheat mode was blocked. Taking away H can only hurt them.
"Most of them reject four-wheel drive for reasons of weight."
Say what? If you have the generators already there, it adds exactly zero weight to use them as motors as well.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 11:34
by hurril
mzso wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 10:53
garrett wrote: ↑12 Sep 2021, 09:42
expensive and overcomplicated MGU-H will be sacked from 2026 onwards, as Mercedes and Renault have abandoned their opposition.
It smells like bullshit. The H is nothing but an electric motor on a shaft, that has already been developed. Granted, how you utilize it to recover and the power it recovers and to spin the turbo to reach optimal performance is not trivial, but they had the past 7 years to optimize that. Nothing to spend there either.
So what does throwing it out actually gains? I come up empty.
It will bring back turbo lag, which is a regression. It will certainly make the PU less efficient, which goes completely against their claimed goals....
It's kind of surprising that Ferrari is okay with it. Their ICE is the worst since cheat mode was blocked. Taking away H can only hurt them.
"Most of them reject four-wheel drive for reasons of weight."
Say what? If you have the generators already there, it adds exactly zero weight to use them as motors as well.
I guess the people that actually work on these things should give you a call then? You seem very knowledgable on the matter.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 12 Sep 2021, 12:02
by NL_Fer
About MGU-H
Yes the MGU-H itself is just a 120000rpm electric motor. But it is the combination of ICE, Turbocharger and MGU-H which makes it complex. These parts are designed to match eachother perfectly. Any change to one of these, or even new fuel brings the need redesign and manufacture of those parts. Also, if a new manufacturer (like VW) likes to enter, it will cost a bilion and 5 years to reach the level of Merc and Honda. Redesign the trio of ICE TC MGU-H several times.
About AWD KERS
Currently there is about an average of 16s of braking per lap, resulting in 2MJ of energy recovery with the 120kw MGU-K. If the braking recovery power would be the same as acceleration, than the drivers would have only 16s of deployment. If the braking recovery is double the power of deployment, like 4WD brake recovery and only RWD deployment, the driver has 32s deployment, which drives more natural. In WEC they came to the same conclusion. LMHD will have 4x as much brake recovery vs deployment.