F1technical.net

ringo wrote:So 850hp is around 690hp from the ICE.
contradicts wazari's intel on all the engine powers.

If you account for those 40hp they saw on dyno but not on track (according to Helmut Marko), then it fits perfectly. The question is if their 2016 engine really has 875hp.

Cowell and Renault are talking about maximum output... maybe it's just about qualifying power when the crankshaft power is prioritized over MGUH harvesting and when they reduce backpressure by sacrifiying a bit of turbine and a bit of MGUH harvesting..? what do you think about it? what are the biggets differences between a qualy mode and a race mode according to you?

Blackout wrote:Cowell and Renault are talking about maximum output... maybe it's just about qualifying power when the crankshaft power is prioritized over MGUH harvesting and when they reduce backpressure by sacrifiying a bit of turbine and a bit of MGUH harvesting..? what do you think about it?

Nothing. All turbo chargers, except the Honda, are big enough to pump the engine to 100% with harvesting at the same time. This is a crucial part for laptime: You run all energy you get from the MGUH directly to the MGUK.

Blackout wrote:what are the biggets differences between a qualy mode and a race mode according to you?

The first thing is battery charging: You run the Q with a full battery and do not harvest on straights with the MGUH. All power runs directly to the K. Harvesting is only done by the brakes.
The second thing is engine lifetime. Mercedes is the best engine on that, so they can run the most aggressive map in Q. Ferrari got their engine more stable -> more power in Q last season.
On the other hand Renault has nearly no Q boost and Honda needs to exchange the engine after a good Q lap...

ringo wrote:So 850hp is around 690hp from the ICE.
contradicts wazari's intel on all the engine powers.

Aside from the fact that they dont have to be exactly "scientific" in their PR numbers, Wazari also explicitly mentioned numbers in race trim, not quali mode.

Its also interesting that Enrico Benzing came up with similar number for quali runs on his blog where he makes technical reviews after each GP. According to his calculations, by the end of the season Merc was at 900-905hp in quali runs, Ferrari at 5-10hp less, and Renault and Honda at 840hp and 830hp respectively.

Mr Taffin saying the Renault power unit has 50 more horses then at Abu dhabi:

“I could say that it is 50 horse power more or less, but one thing is to find it and another is to have it on the track.”

http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/02/08/ ... t-of-2016/

Typical Taffin statement. We hear this for 2 years now...

Imho, util the point where they have fully implemented the new Illmore concept, this engine will still suck compared to competitors.

Not sure how to interpret that. Is he saying they actually have 50 bhp more on the dyno, or is he saying that whatever number he says, the thing that matters is what's delivered on track.

Second one. For sure.

/edit
Lulz at the downvote for my previous post. As if 2 years of disappointing customers would not be enough to proof it's truth.

I don't understand how they don't how much power the engine will have once it's on track. It's just strange. Surely dyno measurements should be accurate or no? Maybe someone with some knowledge of dyno operation could shed some light on this.

gandharva wrote:Second one. For sure.

/edit
Lulz at the downvote for my previous post. As if 2 years of disappointing customers would not be enough to proof it's truth.

I didn't do it, but you were downvoted likely because you believe that Illmore will suddenly take them to the top and not more resources and monetary investment on Renault's part. They no longer throw money at Red Bull via Infinity, and in fact Red Bull now pays Renault for engines via TAG. That cash could easily go to their engine program.

jure wrote:I don't understand how they don't how much power the engine will have once it's on track. It's just strange. Surely dyno measurements should be accurate or no? Maybe someone with some knowledge of dyno operation could shed some light on this.

There's things you can't measure on a dyno, like the amount of chassis vibration on the engine, the cooling requirements, hot spots developed during constant g's while taking turns, or under braking, ambient temperature, humidity etc. Heating due to decreased efficiency of your radiators while following another car.

godlameroso wrote:..and in fact Red Bull now pays Renault for engines..

They always did.

godlameroso wrote: There's things you can't measure on a dyno, like the amount of chassis vibration on the engine, the cooling requirements, hot spots developed during constant g's while taking turns, or under braking, ambient temperature, humidity etc. Heating due to decreased efficiency of your radiators while following another car.

Since this is f1 one would think they would try to simulate vibrations, cooling, ambient temperature, humidity at least on one testbed. Wouldn't turning the engine to sides, moving in forward and backward approximate g-forces? I have in mind something like driving or flying simulator. I understand such testbed would probably be very expensive, but in the long run it is probably worth to have one or not?

What kind of test bed, is that avl testbed, on which Red Bull/Toro Rosso tested 2014 Renault engine?

ME4ME wrote:

godlameroso wrote:..and in fact Red Bull now pays Renault for engines..

They always did.

With hte money Renault's parners (Total and Infinity) gave them...

Maybe gandharva didnt notice the changes that occured in the Renault camp in the last months... And he seems to think Renault cant built engine and only Illmor can save them.
Many things have changed in the las couple of months... Renault has its own team today and Its chassis team will be far more open and cooperative and will work with the engine team hand in hand... Renault has also its own sponsors. And the Total* and infinity and FOM money that used to go to RBR, will go to Renault. And The Renault people and partners can finaly focus on a long term program. They will also invest much more money in it.
What was true in a near past isnt true anymore.

Blackout wrote:

ME4ME wrote:

godlameroso wrote:..and in fact Red Bull now pays Renault for engines..

They always did.

With hte money Renault's parners (Total and Infinity) gave them...

Maybe gandharva didnt notice the changes that occured in the Renault camp in the last months... And he seems to think Renault cant built engine and only Illmor can save them.
Many things have changed in the las couple of months... Renault has its own team today and Its chassis team will be far more open and cooperative and will work with the engine team hand in hand... Renault has also its own sponsors. And the Total* and infinity and FOM money that used to go to RBR, will go to Renault. And The Renault people and partners can finaly focus on a long term program. They will also invest much more money in it.
What was true in a near past isnt true anymore.

I think at this point the manufacturers are seeing the actual tangible benefit of developing these engines. The fact that power is being gained through efficiency is a concept that exactly translates to better cars. It's no longer JUST a marketing exercise(it will always be that) but this is technology they can actually implement. Just the combustion concepts alone are worth pursuing, even if the hybrid stuff is too expensive at the moment, it can get better by developing it here.

They did away with tokens simply as a way to attract new manufacturers, so they wouldn't fall behind like Honda or Renault did. Because in order to be successful in this engine formula, you need to basically start from zero assuming you either know nothing about combustion, and hybrid power, or everything you know is wrong.