F1technical.net

Nico wrote:

MarkedOne8 wrote:In last 6 races, Massa scored more points than Alonso.Massa 58, Alonso 55.Alonso had 2 DNFs.One DNF was his fault, the other one was Grosjean's fault.

He could have scored more than Alfonso in this race also, it would have been a fair fight but Montezemolo bitch needs protection.
Even if it is at the expense of team points, I think Massa could have applied more pressure on Web.
I do not like this modern Ferrari team - htey are not living up to their "racing pedigree"
And BTW alonso is overrated and over the hill, he has done nothing in the last 5 years exept moan, pull faces and talk a lot of ---

Completely agree.So, with today's possible Massa third and Alonso fourth, that means Massa 61, Alonso 52.
Massa hasn't lost his speed he had before crash.That is just an excuse for Ferrari to favor Alonso.
Alonso is one of the most overrated drivers in recent seasons.

MarkedOne8 wrote:

Nico wrote:

MarkedOne8 wrote:In last 6 races, Massa scored more points than Alonso.Massa 58, Alonso 55.Alonso had 2 DNFs.One DNF was his fault, the other one was Grosjean's fault.

He could have scored more than Alfonso in this race also, it would have been a fair fight but Montezemolo bitch needs protection.
Even if it is at the expense of team points, I think Massa could have applied more pressure on Web.
I do not like this modern Ferrari team - htey are not living up to their "racing pedigree"
And BTW alonso is overrated and over the hill, he has done nothing in the last 5 years exept moan, pull faces and talk a lot of ---

Completely agree.So, with today's possible Massa third and Alonso fourth, that means Massa 61, Alonso 52.
Massa hasn't lost his speed he had before crash.That is just an excuse for Ferrari to favor Alonso.
Alonso is one of the most overrated drivers in recent seasons.

Could not agree more, the last time this team was a " racing team " was with Kimmi and Massa, Kimmi took the title and at that stage the car was not the best in the field but the two drivers pushed each other. The following year Massa just missed out due to the lack of defensive driving from Glock. then comes her Majesty Fernanda... You can just see this team morale is nowere. What Ferrari needs is two dynamic young drivers who can push each other and take the fight to the opposition the better driver will lead by default and move the team forward. this "as long as we score podiums and remain consistant" is getting this pathetic team nowere. If primadonna Alonso is so gifted and fast why does he need protection from his own team mate?

Good thing it didn't happen to Button, would likely have inspired his worst bout of 'balance' tourettes in an interview ever!

EVERY RACE FERRARI BRING NEW PARTS, OR AERO UPDATE, BUT NO ONE STEP TO FORWARD, I CAN NOT IMAGINE FERRARI F2012 IN FRONT ROW, OR SET LAP TIME FOR OTHER TEAM WHO CATCHES THEIR SET TIME.

a perfectly balanced car is not the normal state of affairs because temperatures change , track rubbering changes

surely the best comparison is to put the big three in a less than perfect car eg a williams

then a 3 horse race would be a good test

what would I expect the finishing order to be

hamilton
alonso
vettel

I am sure EVERYONE will agree with me

if the car was absolutely balanced to each drivers preference ?

button

lebesset wrote:I am sure EVERYONE will agree with me

I don't. And I sure as hell won't be the only one.

I've always held to a principle that a monkey shouldn't be judged for its ability to swim. I think judging speed is dicey in such a test - because the car's traits could unfairly hinder/help one of them. I think an ideal test would be a completely neutral car which is infinitely setup-able, to achieve any balance you want.

That would be sarcasm i´m sure.

raymondu999 wrote:

lebesset wrote:I am sure EVERYONE will agree with me

I don't. And I sure as hell won't be the only one.

I've always held to a principle that a monkey shouldn't be judged for its ability to swim. I think judging speed is dicey in such a test - because the car's traits could unfairly hinder/help one of them. I think an ideal test would be a completely neutral car which is infinitely setup-able, to achieve any balance you want.

agreed

we can only judge speed if all drivers are in their comfort zone

Good to see the some of the F1 Community is starting to realise that Sebastian Vettel being a 3x WDC and being spoken of the same breath as the likes of Senna and Schumacher is one step too far. The guy isn't even the best driver of his own era let alone in the class of the aforementioned, which is why Jackie Stewart stepped out this week and basically said "The kid won 2 world titles in two of the most dominant rocketships of recent times and never looked anything like the best driver in F1 this season until red bull became the fastest car again".

Hamilton then followed that up with his comments about wanting Alonso to win, which basically read "If I'm not going to win the title, then it's only right if Fernando wins it, he's the only one on my level, Adrian Newey Jr is only hot when the car is super, I would love to have gone to Red Bull against him and ended his hype once and for all, but daddy horner and co blocked the move to protect his career".

Cylinder wrote:Good to see the some of the F1 Community is starting to realise that Sebastian Vettel being a 3x WDC and being spoken of the same breath as the likes of Senna and Schumacher is one step too far. The guy isn't even the best driver of his own era let alone in the class of the aforementioned, which is why Jackie Stewart stepped out this week and basically said "The kid won 2 world titles in two of the most dominant rocketships of recent times and never looked anything like the best driver in F1 this season until red bull became the fastest car again".

Hamilton then followed that up with his comments about wanting Alonso to win, which basically read "If I'm not going to win the title, then it's only right if Fernando wins it, he's the only one on my level, Adrian Newey Jr is only hot when the car is super, I would love to have gone to Red Bull against him and ended his hype once and for all, but daddy horner and co blocked the move to protect his career".

That's hardly what Stewart said.

Regardless of the driver, you always need that good car.

I don't see Alonso and certainly not Hamilton do what he has done. Where is Hamilton in the standings with the best car all season? Exactly. He's basically an epic failure and always has been. He never actually delivered. He is all talk, no walk. Alonso is a bit better but he simply lacks the talent/speed. He's more of a workhorse/manipulator than an actual top driver.

To even compare these 2 to a domination machine is laughable at best.

jdlive wrote: I don't see Alonso and certainly not Hamilton do what he has done. Where is Hamilton in the standings with the best car all season? Exactly.

I´m not sure if you a trolling or simply have slept through the whole season...

Please tell me you are joking.

You guys see what you want to see.

I see a 3x WDC who is once again back to his dominating old ways. (which neither of the other two ever did simply because they lack the quality to do so)

I stick to the facts. You are going by "what if's" that have no real world value.

jdlive wrote:You guys see what you want to see.
I stick to the facts. You are going by "what if's" that have no real world value.

No you see what you see, the rest of us watched the season and realized that while Hamilton might be a quick driver, he doesn´t exactly have control over his pit crew who destroyed many many races for him, about 7 or 8 just in the pits alone.

Or have the ability to fix gearboxes while sitting in front of it. Or fixing rear suspension issues on the fly, fix anti roll bar on the fly.

You keep living inside your bubble and we stay out here in reality.

Nando wrote:

jdlive wrote:You guys see what you want to see.
I stick to the facts. You are going by "what if's" that have no real world value.

No you see what you see, the rest of us watched the season and realized that while Hamilton might be a quick driver, he doesn´t exactly have control over his pit crew who destroyed many many races for him, about 7 or 8 just in the pits alone.

Or have the ability to fix gearboxes while sitting in front of it. Or fixing rear suspension issues on the fly, fix anti roll bar on the fly.

You keep living inside your bubble and we stay out here in reality.

Yeah, you do have a good point. Hamilton lost the championship mostly because of Mclaren's fault, no argument about that.

BUT

F1 is more then raw speed or talent. You need to build up a team and you need to control that team to the last inch. Tbh this is an area where Hamilton fails, and where guys like Vettel and Alonso succeed. Another example of this is Raikkonen. Over his Mclaren years he was the only driver that was able to challenge Schumacher in speed and racing. But where Schumacher excelled in building and controlling a complete team, Raikkonen failed. Raikkonen lost at least 2 WDC due to that fact.

It's easy to say that it's Mclaren's fault, and that Hamilton is the best, the fastest, etc. BUT the facts are that he only has 1 WDC to date, where as ALO & VET have 2 and one of them is going to have 3.

If you look at the pure results, with a 100% objective look, this is the order:

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton

What an embarresment from the Ferrari team in FP3,they want to lose the champion chip,sitting in the garage for more than half the session,following each other not nowing what they are trying to achieve with that and even crushed by Vettel again.

I think they are not going to make it to Q3 today

The Ferrari team needs to wake up and respond to the other