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Pup wrote: Like we discussed earlier, it's more likely the Porsche crowd who will be eyeing the Mac.

The only Porsche that can be compared to the 12C and 458 in terms of pricing and performance and "Zing" is the Carrera GT.

Just_a_fan wrote:

TheRMVR wrote:Well the Top Gear review wasn't really fair to the Ferrari now was it? First of all the McLaren has been tested there for months. Secondly it was on semi-slick tires from what I've heard, not the original ones the customers get. And lastly the time in the McLaren has been done by the 'new' Stig.

So those 3 seconds are very easily explaned. In the CAR test the McLaren was quite a bit slower dispite being set-up by 3 McLaren mechanics for the track. While the Ferrari was from a private owner.

The Corsa tyres are available to buy by any owner. Indeed, an option available is a set of regular tyres, a set of Corsa tyres and a set of winter tyres. So you can use your new car anywhere and any time you like. Perhaps Sir would like to look at McLaren's website and spec up a car before commenting further...

"new Stig" is worth 3 seconds a lap? Wow, I'm surprised he hasn't been snapped up by an F1 team. Even Alonso is only worth 0.6s...

And for the Car test, the Ferrari was never an owner car. Never happen. Ferrari don't allow it. In a recent Evo test, the magazine wanted both a 458 and 599GTO. Ferrari claimed no GTO was available. Evo offered to source a customer car and Ferrari said they would pull the 458 if they did so. Ferrari don't allow tests using owner cars...

That's just not true. Many Ferrari owners lend their cars to magazines and programmes. Ferrari probably won't like it but there is nothing they can do. For smaller magazines it happens even more often. You might be right about CAR, EVO and Autocar. But the rest does it all the time.

And I did not say the new Stig was worth 3 seconds. You should read better. I said the fact that the McLaren was tested and developed on the TG test track combined with the semi-slick tires AND the new Stig could easily explane those 3 seconds. With the first being the most important of course.

TheRMVR wrote:

Just_a_fan wrote:

TheRMVR wrote:Well the Top Gear review wasn't really fair to the Ferrari now was it? First of all the McLaren has been tested there for months. Secondly it was on semi-slick tires from what I've heard, not the original ones the customers get. And lastly the time in the McLaren has been done by the 'new' Stig.

So those 3 seconds are very easily explaned. In the CAR test the McLaren was quite a bit slower dispite being set-up by 3 McLaren mechanics for the track. While the Ferrari was from a private owner.

The Corsa tyres are available to buy by any owner. Indeed, an option available is a set of regular tyres, a set of Corsa tyres and a set of winter tyres. So you can use your new car anywhere and any time you like. Perhaps Sir would like to look at McLaren's website and spec up a car before commenting further...

"new Stig" is worth 3 seconds a lap? Wow, I'm surprised he hasn't been snapped up by an F1 team. Even Alonso is only worth 0.6s...

And for the Car test, the Ferrari was never an owner car. Never happen. Ferrari don't allow it. In a recent Evo test, the magazine wanted both a 458 and 599GTO. Ferrari claimed no GTO was available. Evo offered to source a customer car and Ferrari said they would pull the 458 if they did so. Ferrari don't allow tests using owner cars...

That's just not true. Many Ferrari owners lend their cars to magazines and programmes. Ferrari probably won't like it but there is nothing they can do. For smaller magazines it happens even more often. You might be right about CAR, EVO and Autocar. But the rest does it all the time.

And I did not say the new Stig was worth 3 seconds. You should read better. I said the fact that the McLaren was tested and developed on the TG test track combined with the semi-slick tires AND the new Stig could easily explane those 3 seconds. With the first being the most important of course.

I've read enough to believe that Ferrari are not happy with owners lending cars for comparative performance testing. Sure, lending of older cars for "these cars are all great, which one you have is up to you" type articles is not a problem. Lending for "we'll tell you the best car here" articles is not liked because they can't control the quality of the car being tested.

As for the 3 seconds, if you watch the Top Gear lap, the car is nailed to the track and doesn't get lairy at any point. There is none of the tail sliding wide on exits (which is usually straight on to gravel and grass at the TG circuit) that many fast laps seem to entail. That alone will help laptimes because the power can be applied earlier.

Perhaps the new Stig just knows how to drive the car properly. The Car track test was done by "old" Stig who admitted he'd never driven the McLaren before but had driven the 458 before. Hardly likely to get the best from it on first acquaintance really...

Or Mclaren asked for Chris Goodwin to be the stig for that run.

Pierce89 wrote: I'm an engineer and I much prefer the 458(Alonso fan too, what a coincidence). The fact that the Ferrari is constructed by more artisan means than the Mclaren's sterile, bland, robot like employees, might bother some, but I love something built with emotion.

Presumably you've been to both factories and discussed the cars in detail with the employees on the lines producing them? You've got first hand experience of the emotional and robotic employees? Seen them at work and watched their every action as they fashion the cars?

No? Thought not...

Pup wrote: But all of that aside, I don't think anyone will buy a Ferrari vs a McLaren based on a few seconds here or there. The two cars speak to two different types of people. Like we discussed earlier, it's more likely the Porsche crowd who will be eyeing the Mac.

I think the McLaren will be bought by many of the same people who buy the Ferrari. Both cars will be sat in garages next to each other in many cases. One will be used on a regular (daily?) basis and one on holidays and track days.

Top Gear video here for those unable to use the BBC's iPlayer:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/11/mcla ... p-time-on/

Just_a_fan wrote:

TheRMVR wrote:

Just_a_fan wrote:
"new Stig" is worth 3 seconds a lap? Wow, I'm surprised he hasn't been snapped up by an F1 team. Even Alonso is only worth 0.6s...

And for the Car test, the Ferrari was never an owner car. Never happen. Ferrari don't allow it. In a recent Evo test, the magazine wanted both a 458 and 599GTO. Ferrari claimed no GTO was available. Evo offered to source a customer car and Ferrari said they would pull the 458 if they did so. Ferrari don't allow tests using owner cars...

That's just not true. Many Ferrari owners lend their cars to magazines and programmes. Ferrari probably won't like it but there is nothing they can do. For smaller magazines it happens even more often. You might be right about CAR, EVO and Autocar. But the rest does it all the time.

And I did not say the new Stig was worth 3 seconds. You should read better. I said the fact that the McLaren was tested and developed on the TG test track combined with the semi-slick tires AND the new Stig could easily explane those 3 seconds. With the first being the most important of course.

I've read enough to believe that Ferrari are not happy with owners lending cars for comparative performance testing. Sure, lending of older cars for "these cars are all great, which one you have is up to you" type articles is not a problem. Lending for "we'll tell you the best car here" articles is not liked because they can't control the quality of the car being tested.

As for the 3 seconds, if you watch the Top Gear lap, the car is nailed to the track and doesn't get lairy at any point. There is none of the tail sliding wide on exits (which is usually straight on to gravel and grass at the TG circuit) that many fast laps seem to entail. That alone will help laptimes because the power can be applied earlier.

Perhaps the new Stig just knows how to drive the car properly. The Car track test was done by "old" Stig who admitted he'd never driven the McLaren before but had driven the 458 before. Hardly likely to get the best from it on first acquaintance really...

Well I've seen 4 tests between these cars. 3 of them have been done at the same time under the same conditions with the same driver. All of those times the Ferrari won. Only when the two were tested on different occasions with different drivers on McLarens own territory the McLaren was able to be quicker.

I draw my own conclusions from that.

During one of tests the F458 also easily beats cars that she never beats before: the GT2 RS.

Hockeheim short : 2.1s advantage for GT2RS
Nordschleife : 10s advantage for GT2RS
Bedford West : 0.4s advantage for GT2RS
Nardo (handling track 2.8km) : 1.4s advantage for GT2RS

and CAR test on Rockingham : 0.5 advantage for F458?
not a stock car IMO...

And in these 3 tests, they don't manage to disable TC and only said that it was not possible. Obviously Jeremy Clarkson succeeded in that.
Why they did'nt ask McLaren on that point? They could have an answer, disable TC and do a real test.

McLaren MP4-12C vs Ferrari 458 Italia
http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/mclare ... 2011-07-14

Jay Leno, On Buying His McLaren
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/07/ja ... s-mclaren/

finishline wrote:Jay Leno, On Buying His McLaren
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/07/ja ... s-mclaren/

Surprised the steel brake package is lighter, I guess its also smaller(disc diameter, caliper size...etc)?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a84RaR2P ... ded#at=262[/youtube]

4.20, oversteer and all settings at normal.


It's not as electronically dampened as it seems, maybe.

Caito wrote:
4.20, oversteer and all settings at normal.


It's not as electronically dampened as it seems, maybe.

Exactly.

The phrase "it's been designed to be driven hard by everyone" was rather telling. I think the journos have all been trying to be "the big I am" and the car's just been saying "er, no you're not"...

It looked like Leno made a bit of a mess of things out there. Yet, he came away feeling like the car was infallible. I suspect that his response will be the norm from the guys who will actually be buying these things. "Soul" or not, the truth is that for 99% of wealthy weekend warriors, this car will make them feel like they're better drivers. It will flatter them, and flatter their lap times, and the result will be people lining up in front of the McLaren dealerships. This is a supercar (the first?) that mortals can drive well.