F1technical.net

xpensive wrote:

wuzak wrote:You've lost me here X.

A stream has a mass flow. The regulations define a mass flow.

I'm quite sure that trying to beat the mass flow limit will be met with severe punishment.

A stream has mass stream, not xactly the same as mass flow, remember slots and holes?

I don't know what you describe as different with a stream and a flow.

They are allowed to move a certain amount of fuel, by mass, from one side of the FIA supplied fuel metering device to the other over a given period. So many kg per second (or hour, in this case).

It doesn't matter if it goes through in droplets are a continuous stream, it is still mass flow.

raymondu999 wrote:IIRC double diffusers were not about slot vs hole semantics, but rather about a hole being visible in vertical projection?

Correct.

xpensive wrote:

wuzak wrote:

xpensive wrote:When MHPE will claim that it's a matter of interpretation of the rules, I think it will soon end up far above the
scrutineers, I remember how MrM declared Brawn's DDD legal long before the first race of the 2009 season.

This will be no different, is a stream a flow?

You've lost me here X.

A stream has a mass flow. The regulations define a mass flow.

I'm quite sure that trying to beat the mass flow limit will be met with severe punishment.

A stream has mass stream, not xactly the same as mass flow, remember slots and holes?

xpensive is this your effort to be provocative?? Or do you seriously believe there is a difference between stream and flow? If you seriously believe there is a hole in the regulations that allow you a limitless stream of fuel please elaborate in how you would create and use this stream.

Guys, this is simple. Fuel tank --> pump ---> FIA meter ----> Accumulator ----> engine. Run fuel through the FIA meter at full rate even when the engine isn't using it, the accumulator stores it. Use the fuel stored in the accumulator at a rate higher than the FIA meter would allow, periodically, to make more power. Done.

I'm sure it's all banned in the rules but I just came up with this and haven't checked at all. So feel free to disprove me.

MustGoFaster wrote:Guys, this is simple. Fuel tank --> pump ---> FIA meter ----> Accumulator ----> engine. Run fuel through the FIA meter at full rate even when the engine isn't using it, the accumulator stores it. Use the fuel stored in the accumulator at a rate higher than the FIA meter would allow, periodically, to make more power. Done.

I'm sure it's all banned in the rules but I just came up with this and haven't checked at all. So feel free to disprove me.

I described this same idea some months ago in the engine thread. This is illegal though.

Technical Regulations for 2014 :
5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited.

Knew it was too simple.

Holm86 wrote:

MustGoFaster wrote:Guys, this is simple. Fuel tank --> pump ---> FIA meter ----> Accumulator ----> engine. Run fuel through the FIA meter at full rate even when the engine isn't using it, the accumulator stores it. Use the fuel stored in the accumulator at a rate higher than the FIA meter would allow, periodically, to make more power. Done.

I'm sure it's all banned in the rules but I just came up with this and haven't checked at all. So feel free to disprove me.

I described this same idea some months ago in the engine thread. This is illegal though.

Technical Regulations for 2014 :
5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited.

the flow rate is still legal ..so the question is :is it allowed to store fuel somewhere in the car -not in the fuel cell? usually there is an allowance of 0.5 litre (catch tank) so why not use this to augment power under certain circumstances?
One could simply build a piston accumulator with a half litre capacity and use a pressure source in the car to empty the vessel at full power demand . you would have to have a second catch tank in the tank to avoid fuel starvation though but i think it is basically a good idea .
half a litre is a lot of extra fuel considering you can refill the bottle instantly when off throttle..so an extra capacity of 2 or 3 litre per lap ..if you like more than you would possibly want to burn..Ican´t believe they are not already investigating it..

Holm86 wrote: Technical Regulations for 2014 :
5.10.5 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited.

if they have in hand about 1.5 cc at around 10500 for about 1 sec, then 'spend' it around 11500/12200
they can have constant AFR and constant boost over the normal rev range
this tiny amount of 'accumulation' will not be apparent
it will not be in breach of the above rule, when there is no evidence of rule breaking there is no rule breaking

the meter would appear to be +- .25% accurate under the relatively steady and benign conditions at the tank outlet
in the 6 individual injectors the fuel density can change by eg 0%-7% at these pressures and flow will be extremely discontinuous
the fuel temperature, viscosity and density will vary
the meter is measuring time-averaged section-averaged velocities and calculating an assumed accumulated mass flow rate
IMO Gills own figures seem to suggest that the metering could only detect an accumulation significantly larger than above
the data stream from the 6 'injector telltale' meters is unlikely ever to 'exactly' agree with the 'master' tank outflow data ?

get real, the engine people knew this all along, the rulemakers expect this

the measurement of unsteady fluid massflow is one of the most difficult and intractable measurement tasks (I should know)
the Gill meter is neither a unique device, nor a miracle device
if it was, such meters would not be available to F1,
they would be secretly, exclusively and very lucratively supplied to selected makers of liquid-fueled rockets

sincerely, IMO

...... other opinions are available, especially from Mr WhiteBlue
(for once I shall not respond to his inevitable counterblast)

@marcush;

Half a liter? 30 cc (22 g) of fuel would be enough to get a 20% power-boost for four seconds!

That's an xtra 120-130 Hp for less fuel than a schnaps, think about it.

Accumulation is simply prohibited by the regulations as pointed out several times in the engine and the engine yin yang thread already. Even if it were technically feasible any evidence supplied by a disgruntled former employee would expose a team to drastic sanctions. Cheating the basic formula of a racing series is usually punished by a temporary ban of the competitor of at least one year. I doubt that you will find many teams, which are prepared to gamble at such stakes.

xpensive wrote:@marcush;

Half a liter? 30 cc (22 g) of fuel would be enough to get a 20% power-boost for four seconds!

That's an xtra 120-130 Hp for less fuel than a schnaps, think about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubic_centimetre

One liter is equal to 1 cubic decimetre and holds 1000 cubic centimetre. There must be something wrong in your figures. Half a litre would hold 500 cc.

WhiteBlue wrote:Cheating the basic formula of a racing series is usually punished by a temporary ban of the competitor of at least one year.

Oh, I remember a ban RedBull got for using flexible bodywork which is clearly against the rules.
Or do I?

Something can be banned only if it is detected. If teams use something which is within tolerances of the measuring equipment and it is left undetected it can't be banned unless the measuring procedure is altered.

PS time between upshifts at the first 3-4 gears is within 1-1,5 seconds.

No, it's not.

20% of 27.77 g/sec for four seconds is 22.22 g, which with a density of 0.74 g/cc means 30.02 cc.

30 cc is the same as 30 ml, or 3 cl, or the size of a schnaps. Easy enough to hide away me thinks.

Could you just run always at +0.25% fuel flow?

How would you hide the accumulation physically? Variable fuel pressure based on RPM. Fuel lines expand at a certain pressure/rpm combination.

I must have an older version of the regs, 5.10.3 and 5.10.4 are identicle...

5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.4 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.5 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.
5.10.6 Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate after the measurement point is prohibited.

dren wrote:Could you just run always at +0.25% fuel flow?

How would you hide the accumulation physically? Expandable fuel lines?

any trickery with the flow meter in tank would be found out when you try to use it,

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of
the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and
the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the
Appendix to the Technical Regulations.
5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature
and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA
data logger.