Ok sounds like cylinder head issues; valve sealing, piston rings, pre chamber injector sealing?
Well Honda uses their own engineers, and most of them are young people who are very bright, but being bright sometimes cannot replace experience. This problem would have been detected by engineers experience with design these race engines.
Honda seems to be torturing McLaren by using Formula1 as R&D for their own development. I don't think they care about winning at all costs. It would benefit them to bring in a few consultants who have been in the game, ie European F1 engine designers.
I'm not bashing Honda, but it must be expected that things will go wrong with a ground up project; especially where there is little or no lessons learned from previous years.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:43
by PlatinumZealot
henry wrote:
coco-bun wrote:Just wanted to share another Japanese article with Hasegawa quotes I haven't seen in European / English media.
Which a quick and dirty translation would be something like... "The trouble (that caused them to change the power unit... I'm guessing the one after 29 laps on day 2) is definitely causing headaches. Although we're still looking into the root cause of the issue, we know the general area that is causing it. So for next week's test, we'll have to increase reliability somehow, for example by strengthening that area."
I'd more than happy to translate the whole article if google translate doesn't make sense (but I'm slightly busy... so please don't expect an immediate turnaround).
This is just my opinion, but sounds like they are closing in to finding the cause of the 'dead cylinder' comment from few days ago (see the article I translated here). Hopefully we'll see a stronger performance from them. Also, some context and meaning seems to get lost in translation, there's even an article on this with quotes from Hasegawa, so I'm starting to go directly to Japanese media and articles for Honda related news. If you guys are interested, I'll keep on posting interesting bits as I come across them.
Thanks for that.
If it is thought that a solution can be found quickly by strengthening an area ( and thus increasing its weight) does this suggest it is not one of they key moving assemblies where such a change would propagate other changes because of vibrations?
I for one enjoy seeing direct reports from the Japanese press so thanks again.
You know whats interesting?!
All other engine manufactuers said ADDED weight in 2017 for structural reasons. Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault all said their engines were up to 5kg heavier. Honda was the only one that said their engine is lighter! When andy cowell stressed how important load paths are to maintaining demensional stability I wonder if Honda is having some structural warping because they removed a bit more material? This is the one thing that cannot be simulated on a shaker rig. The G-forces and overhung parts of the car stretching and compressing the engine!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:43
by absbeginner
HPD wrote:
It's a shame..
Here is the news:
There seems to be a problem to the heat engine valves which do not maintain the increase of the pressure in the combustion chamber in addition to the need, immediately identified in the Montmelò tests, of having to redo the oil tank.
It is an issue that is linked to materials and stuff is not easy to solve.
I wouldn't take this news seriously, in the italian article they use the word "roba" which is a slang expression a technical wise person would never use in a written analysis.
That article has the same value of any other opinion expressed in this thread.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:53
by FrukostScones
when Hagesawa spoke of "built at extreme" and lighter PU, I had to think immediately of this what Andy Cowell said regarding the Merc 2017 PU.
let's hope for the sake of F1 that the issue(s) are not that serious that they have a structural problem.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:55
by FW17
PlatinumZealot wrote:
You know whats interesting?!
All other engine manufactuers said ADDED weight in 2017 for structural reasons. Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault all said their engines were up to 5kg heavier. Honda was the only one that said their engine is lighter! When andy cowell stressed how important load paths are to maintaining demensional stability I wonder if Honda is having some structural warping because they removed a bit more material? This is the one thing that cannot be simulated on a shaker rig. The G-forces and overhung parts of the car stretching and compressing the engine!
Some very wise responses
sticktion wrote:
I don't see how this follows. The Merc is an evolution of last year's design, while the 2017 Honda is obviously a ground-up effort. If we roll with the idea that the 2016 Honda was the heaviest, the new PU could still technically be heavier than the current Merc and lighter than last year's Honda.
Unless we see implication that the new Honda is lighter than the new Merc, I don't see a reason to get ruffled.
diffuser wrote:
That's a very vague statement right ??
For Example Did Honda PU go from 400KG to 200 KG and both Merc and Ferrari from 150KG to 155KG ?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 19:03
by Craigy
PlatinumZealot wrote: This is the one thing that cannot be simulated on a shaker rig. The G-forces and overhung parts of the car stretching and compressing the engine!
I think with a few suitably placed hydraulic rams you can simulate the torsional/bending forces the engine will see from the chassis, gearbox and suspension, and I'm pretty sure Honda have at least one 7 post rig to do precisely that.
The G-forces throwing fluids around (oil tank issue) is another thing.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 19:23
by PlatinumZealot
That is a good idea.
You would have a frame around the engine to compress, strech, bend and twist it while it is coupled to the gearbox and or directly to the dyno. Anyway i believe that they do have something in place. It is just something new and interesting to me, such a dyno. A stress dyno if you may.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 21:35
by Blackout
Craigy wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote: This is the one thing that cannot be simulated on a shaker rig. The G-forces and overhung parts of the car stretching and compressing the engine!
I think with a few suitably placed hydraulic rams you can simulate the torsional/bending forces the engine will see from the chassis, gearbox and suspension, and I'm pretty sure Honda have at least one 7 post rig to do precisely that.
The G-forces throwing fluids around (oil tank issue) is another thing.
... for a tiny fraction of the second, not few seconds like during heavy braking.
I'm not so sure there are any corners at Catalunya where breaking is applied for a few (3) seconds.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 00:00
by piast9
RS200E wrote:I'm not so sure there are any corners at Catalunya where breaking is applied for a few (3) seconds.
I am sure that the braking zones are substantially longer than 2 or 3 m which I think is the travel of that robotic arm.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 00:01
by ncassi22
Seeing as this is the first year of the new regs they'd only be going on simulation data when setting stiffness targets etc. If something like this is indeed what is wrong with the engine maybe they went too aggressive and didn't factor in a large enough margin? As appose to any testing deficiency. Could explain why it wasn't picked up in testing. Too conservative testing parameters perhaps?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 02:01
by godlameroso
Imagine if the bores or the head are becoming warped because the piston bores are too close together, and there's not enough material between the bores for the stiffness required. Or if the combustion chambers are so close that they're bleeding into each other when the head warps. Do these magical blocks still use(super fancy)head gaskets?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 07:41
by jonas_linder
Imagine if there is a rough unicorn running around inside the engine (reference to flight of conchords)!
Come on guys, where are the facts? One article where someone speculates? Interpretations of what McClaren and Honda are saying?
In the end, it might be true, but right now it is just rumors!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 08:32
by DiogoBrand
jonas_linder wrote:Imagine if there is a rough unicorn running around inside the engine (reference to flight of conchords)!
Come on guys, where are the facts? One article where someone speculates? Interpretations of what McClaren and Honda are saying?
In the end, it might be true, but right now it is just rumors!
