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Cold Fussion wrote:

alemos24 wrote:So , in the end how much HP have these cars ?

Someone says that the ice could produces 690 Hp + 160 Ers .

Close to 600 Hp.

600 hp is what cosworth speculated that it could produce

From everything we have seen so far it is difficult to argue the cars have less power than last year. It is also apparent that the Renault PU needs a recharge lap, its unusual for them to do two flying laps in qualy in a row (this might have changed with latest updates?).

The most these engines make is 620 bhp. The ERS will add 160.
So that's 780hp.
The reason these cars seem fast is the low drag setup, the advantage to be had from gearing with the wide power band. But otherwise they look much slower on track to me.

Hamilton has repeatedly said that the car has more power, but I feel it's the pull that he's getting from the electric torque and the turbo engine.

ringo wrote:The most these engines make is 620 bhp.

Where have you pulled that figure from?

It's what my calculations show. And try as I might I couldnt get more than that from the fuel restriction. This is with 15% mechanical losses. Some teams have said 600, some 580, so 620 is a healthy figure.

ringo wrote:It's what my calculations show. And try as I might I couldnt get more than that from the fuel restriction. This is with 15% mechanical losses. Some teams have said 600, some 580, so 620 is a healthy figure.

So you're saying that because you calculated something based on a bunch of assumptions about the fuel, and the engine, it's impossible that no one has done something better?

beelsebob wrote:

ringo wrote:It's what my calculations show. And try as I might I couldnt get more than that from the fuel restriction. This is with 15% mechanical losses. Some teams have said 600, some 580, so 620 is a healthy figure.

So you're saying that because you calculated something based on a bunch of assumptions about the fuel, and the engine, it's impossible that no one has done something better?

I've seen his figures, he has a good engine spread sheet that you can change the inputs on. He's probably not far off. I'm normally one of the first to call Ringo out on his claims, but he's got this one about right.

ringo wrote:It's what my calculations show. And try as I might I couldnt get more than that from the fuel restriction. This is with 15% mechanical losses. Some teams have said 600, some 580, so 620 is a healthy figure.

How about instead of calculating using your 13.6 fuel:air ratio try calculating it using the stoichiometric figure of 14.7 to one and see what it comes out.

Mercedes claim thermal efficiency "above 40%". For 100kg/hr of fuel with a HV of 45 Mj/kg 40% TE gives 500 kW or 667 hp. Unfortunately Mercedes did not specify whether the 40% included electricity harvested by the MGUH.

gruntguru wrote:Mercedes claim thermal efficiency "above 40%". For 100kg/hr of fuel with a HV of 45 Mj/kg 40% TE gives 500 kW or 667 hp. Unfortunately Mercedes did not specify whether the 40% included electricity harvested by the MGUH.

• The result is "only" 667 bhp
• we know that you get 160 hp from the ERS system
• we know that the other teams are around the 600 bhp area for their ICE alone
• we know that Mercedes is almost as fast with ICE only as the other teams with ICE and ERS.

Given all these 4 facts, I find it highly unlikely that the Merc ICE is around the 507hb mark. The idea that Mercedes found an extra 50hp over what Ringo thinks is possible sounds much more likely.

Note, it may even be that both ringo is right, and Merc have a more powerful ICE than that - it might be that Mercedes have found a loop hole in the engine regulations that no one has discovered yet.

Where did 45 Mj/kg come from?

WilliamsF1 wrote:Where did 45 Mj/kg come from?

That's an extremely conservative estimate of the energy density of the fuel. Even fuel for road going cars typically exceeds this.

beelsebob wrote:

WilliamsF1 wrote:Where did 45 Mj/kg come from?

That's an extremely conservative estimate of the energy density of the fuel. Even fuel for road going cars typically exceeds this.

Not really, pump gas is typically 43- 46 MJ/kg, while nobody knows what Shell and Total has cooked up for this F1 season.

beelsebob wrote:

gruntguru wrote:Mercedes claim thermal efficiency "above 40%". For 100kg/hr of fuel with a HV of 45 Mj/kg 40% TE gives 500 kW or 667 hp. Unfortunately Mercedes did not specify whether the 40% included electricity harvested by the MGUH.

• The result is "only" 667 bhp
• we know that you get 160 hp from the ERS system
• we know that the other teams are around the 600 bhp area for their ICE alone
• we know that Mercedes is almost as fast with ICE only as the other teams with ICE and ERS.

Given all these 4 facts, I find it highly unlikely that the Merc ICE is around the 507hb mark. The idea that Mercedes found an extra 50hp over what Ringo thinks is possible sounds much more likely.

Note, it may even be that both ringo is right, and Merc have a more powerful ICE than that - it might be that Mercedes have found a loop hole in the engine regulations that no one has discovered yet.

The 667hp figure could be:
a) ICE only
b) ICE + MGUH power, or
c) ICE + MGUH + MGUK/ES power.

It is unlikely that 40% TE is achieved with the ICE only.

It is most likely that 40% TE is in turbo-compound mode. Let's say that the ICE has 600hp, and can get 70hp back from the MGUH, that would give 670hp. You would then have an additional 90hp if you also used the ES to drive the MGUK - a total of 760hp.

wuzak wrote: It is unlikely that 40% TE is achieved with the ICE only.

It is most likely that 40% TE is in turbo-compound mode. Let's say that the ICE has 600hp, and can get 70hp back from the MGUH, that would give 670hp. You would then have an additional 90hp if you also used the ES to drive the MGUK - a total of 760hp.

That is a most resonable estimation; With 46 MJ/kg, 27.8 g/s flow and 35% efficiency you get 450 kW or 600 Hp.

MGU-K is limited to 120 kW or160 Hp, wherever the electricity is coming from, the ES or the MGU-H.

Total 760 Hp means a total efficiency of 44%

Mercedes superiority comes from a fully develop MGU-H, which gives them the whole enchillada almost everywhere.