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The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.

and honda pu its 160hp down from others.....very good job

Wazari wrote:
The current PU overall I think is very good and I am excited about it...

So I hope this PU can be exploited to its full potential. The power is there, the efficiency is there and as usual, reliability is the big question mark because mainly of what I have mentioned before. ..

I really don't get it ( sorry for my ignorance), but how can someone know that you have a power and efficiency , when track testing shows quite the opposite, and if you have -in comparison to who?

...at the setting they have been able to run it at.

Facts Only wrote:

GoranF1 wrote:Until Honda continue to refuse mule car for testing situation will stay the same.
Renault,Mercedes and Ferrari use mule cars.

Where do you get this from? Source or evidence? None because it's BS

if you believe they dont, if you believe in honesty in F1, IF you believe they wouldnt do ANYTHING to win, you live in a fairy tale.

other than that i have 0 evidence.

ollandos wrote:The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.

and honda pu its 160hp down from others.....very good job

so are you telling me lap time corrected Mclaren has 3rd best chassis?

Hasn't the whole mule car thing been banned? Or is there a gentlemans agreement not to use them? I thought there was something like that.

skoop wrote:Hasn't the whole mule car thing been banned? Or is there a gentlemans agreement not to use them? I thought there was something like that.

GoranF1 wrote:

skoop wrote:Hasn't the whole mule car thing been banned? Or is there a gentlemans agreement not to use them? I thought there was something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3H6Jxisfk

Jeah, I know about that. In my opinion the ban / agreemanet came after the season began in 2014. I'll try to find something on this

Edit: This article hints in the direction I'm thinking:

“There have been a lot of discussions about whether we might make what is called a mule car to run the new engine next year,” said Lowe. “It’s very expensive to make a mule car, especially when we have other programmes running as well. Not just expensive in money but in terms of the people you need to design it.

“Most of the teams are agreeing that we will not have mule cars. The regulations wouldn’t currently make a mule car of any benefit anyway but we’re not agreeing to introduce any new test sessions that would use mule cars. So then the question is: can we enter a new season with a new power unit, without that track testing?”

(Paddy Lowe, 2014, Source: http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/V6-m ... 47790.html)

The team which obviously didn't agree to that is Ferrari.

Like I said, I'm not sure of this and I could be totally wrong about this

skoop wrote:

GoranF1 wrote:

skoop wrote:Hasn't the whole mule car thing been banned? Or is there a gentlemans agreement not to use them? I thought there was something like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od3H6Jxisfk

Jeah, I know about that. In my opinion the ban / agreemanet came after the season began in 2014. I'll try to find something on this

Edit: This article hints in the direction I'm thinking:

“There have been a lot of discussions about whether we might make what is called a mule car to run the new engine next year,” said Lowe. “It’s very expensive to make a mule car, especially when we have other programmes running as well. Not just expensive in money but in terms of the people you need to design it.

“Most of the teams are agreeing that we will not have mule cars. The regulations wouldn’t currently make a mule car of any benefit anyway but we’re not agreeing to introduce any new test sessions that would use mule cars. So then the question is: can we enter a new season with a new power unit, without that track testing?”

(Paddy Lowe, 2014, Source: http://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/V6-m ... 47790.html)

The team which obviously didn't agree to that is Ferrari.

Like I said, I'm not sure of this and I could be totally wrong about this

I know about that but i think( have zero evidence) that they still secretly use and test new engines in them.

ollandos wrote:The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.

and honda pu its 160hp down from others.....very good job

A packaging problem, where electrical parts are hotwired by vibration due to tightness?

Years ago Red Bull had their alternator troubles which appeared due to undersized elements as far as I remember, which made the engine drop-out at once.

@bill shoe: Yes it´s a shame about the GTE Ford performance, also because there could be no better scenery to promote their V6 Eco Boost line up than taking part in the current F1 World Championship. They could do it: Their V6 GBA of ´87 was a master of efficiency.

ollandos wrote:The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.....

these crankshafts have dampers to reduce torsional vibration but will still be twisting through about +0.25 deg to -0.25 deg about 200 times per second
generating high stresses that would cause fatigue failure after maybe 200 hours

the mechanical effects due to the MGU-K (geared to the crankshaft) will be integrated into the crankshaft/damper system by design
but the MGU-K is presumably exposed to (some of) the crankshaft's torsional vibration
this vibration is presumably causing some kind of vibratory stress damage/fretting to the electrical insulation of conductors in the rotating parts

Tommy Cookers wrote:

ollandos wrote:The electrial problems are being caused by the PU vibrations. According to the Sky testing recap tonight.....

these crankshafts have dampers to reduce torsional vibration but will still be twisting through about +0.25 deg to -0.25 deg about 200 times per second
generating high stresses that would cause fatigue failure after maybe 200 hours

the mechanical effects due to the MGU-K (geared to the crankshaft) will be integrated into the crankshaft/damper system by design
but the MGU-K is presumably exposed to (some of) the crankshaft's torsional vibration
this vibration is presumably causing some kind of vibratory stress damage/fretting to the electrical insulation of conductors in the rotating parts

That's something I'd like to know more about mate !
Could you explain in a bit more detail the crankshaft damper system ?

I find that fascinating !

Given the SN curve for high strength steel and IF there is a problem with fatigue on anything crank related, it would reveal itself within 100 to 200 minutes not hours..

R

Wazari wrote: So I hope this PU can be exploited to its full potential. The power is there, the efficiency is there and as usual, reliability is the big question mark because mainly of what I have mentioned before. This of course has caused friction between us and McLaren and it is a very, very difficult partnership. I don’t know what the future lies but I know we have put tremendous effort into this PU. Almost everything is new. This is what IMO we should have built for 2015. Things will break. The latest failure was a valve-train issue stemming from an electrical problem. This is a problem that is being addressed currently and I think should be resolved before Melbourne.

Wazari-san: I think a week back you mentioned that everyone at Honda was happy with what they saw and this weeks its been the exact opposite. Hasegawa-san has openly admitted that he is worried that the gap to rivals would have increased this year.

So while reliability troubles could be expected because of a new layout and modifications to the engine, lack of power is a shocker. There have been reports about the ERS system is not working well and not charging within a lap. Is this the real issue or do you believe there is a fundamental problem with the design itself because of which potential peak power cannot be extracted?

I read few posts which say that McLaren must go back to Mercedes. I think everyone who wants McLaren to win again must understand that if they were to use Mercedes engine, they could at best come second but not win a championship.

alexa wrote:

Wazari wrote:
The current PU overall I think is very good and I am excited about it...

So I hope this PU can be exploited to its full potential. The power is there, the efficiency is there and as usual, reliability is the big question mark because mainly of what I have mentioned before. ..

I really don't get it ( sorry for my ignorance), but how can someone know that you have a power and efficiency , when track testing shows quite the opposite, and if you have -in comparison to who?

What do you think about dyno