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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 05:21
by Cannonballer
Singabule wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 04:37
torpor wrote: ↑18 Mar 2017, 21:45
There's a word for what you're doing:
calculated optimism
Now you understand why i bet both MCL finish in AUS with Stoffel scoring points.
There is no way that can pay enough to be +ev...
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 05:34
by etusch
wuzak wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 02:19
Singabule wrote: ↑18 Mar 2017, 19:57
3. Absolutely they use TJI, the dual anchor! This could explain their low power, bad drivability, detonation on Stoffel. You must analyze why Hasegawa not too panik and still looking confident they can solve this: it is related to ignition and fuel spray timing! This area is the weakest point in honda. Buuuttt its related to software, how to create harmony in their engine. Remember that andy cowel always mention this? He should be very proud of their IT team. Hell, why cant the customers team win with the same equipment with merc? IT IS THEIR SOFTWARE! basically what merc give to customers is a safe mode, with no chance to overclock it.
So, they have jumped from having no TJI to having the latest and greatest TJI system?
I doubt that the "double anchor" system would explain their issues any more than them using a new, to them, combustion concept which they have worked out properly yet.
Oh, and Mercedes' customer teams can't win with the same PU because next to Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull they are not so great in the chassis and aero departments.
There are merc engine using teams but only main teams engine makes different in qual
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 07:49
by Singabule
wuzak wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 02:19
So, they have jumped from having no TJI to having the latest and greatest TJI system?
I doubt that the "double anchor" system would explain their issues any more than them using a new, to them, combustion concept which they have worked out.
Why would they use same technology to other while they are 2 step behind? Hasegawa san also said that they prefer big risk big potential engine rather than evolving their 2016 engine with standard but proved TJI technology, which is soooo 2016. Hell, their primary plan is injecting TJI technology in 2016 PU before suzuka, then choice to allocate their resource to 2017 instead, with more advanced and Last minute technology.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 12:38
by adrianjordan
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but what does TJI stand for and what does it do?
I don't have time to wade through hundreds of pages to try and find the answer!!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 12:50
by Jef Patat
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 14:33
by Midnight
Not sure if this link is going to work. It's the mcl32 official promo film. There's a point where the sound is slowed down. Take a listen!!
https://www.facebook.com/McLaren.Racing ... 704316413/
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 15:22
by HPD
Honda's electric motors work
Mercedes was still decent behind the top speed. With 338.5 km / h top speed, 292.6 km / h on the finish line and 45.9 km / h difference, the silver arrows were nevertheless in the front range. One may assume that there is still something of the engine. The low angle of incidence of the car also helps. For this the Mercedes W08 comes a bit wider therefore like the Red Bull.
The Renault teams were still driving with the hand brake applied. Despite the defects in the area of the MGU-K, the factory Renault had a speed gain of 40.9 km / h on the second part of the straight. Force India dropped slightly at 37.7 km / h. The Force India engineers know the problem. The side boxes are too wide. They will shrink to GP Spain when the smaller radiators are ready.
The McLaren Honda was on the finish line. After all, the car could increase by 38.6 km / h between the measuring points. This reveals that the electric motors seem to be the least problem on the Honda V6 turbo.
What is really worth the top speed will be shown by our Longrun analyzes. You have to put the speeds on the straight line and the target for a fair comparison also in relation to the circumstances. So enough fuel on board and engines in racing trim.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 32983.html
Top-Speed-Hitliste Barcelona F1-Test 2017
Team........Top-Speed......Speed Start/Ziel.....Differenz
Ferrari......340.6 km/h......293.4 km/h...........47.2 km/h
Williams....339.6 km/h......294.2 km/h...........45.4 km/h
Mercedes...338.5 km/h......292.6 km/h...........45.9 km/h
Haas F1.....333.3 km/h......291.1 km/h...........42.2 km/h
Red Bull....331.2 km/h......293.4 km/h...........37.8 km/h
Renault.....331.2 km/h......290.3 km/h...........40.9 km/h
Toro Ros....329.2 km/h......288.0 km/h...........41.2 km/h
Force In.....327.2 km/h......289.5 km/h...........37.7 km/h
Sauber.......325.3 km/h.....287.2 km/h............38.1 km/h
McLaren.....324.3 km/h......285.7 km/h...........38.6 km/h
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 17:35
by ncassi22
So to the mathy guys how much difference is that in hp? Assuming equal drag/gearing/traction/etc for simplicity.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 17:50
by Chanman141
HPD wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 15:22
Honda's electric motors work
Mercedes was still decent behind the top speed. With 338.5 km / h top speed, 292.6 km / h on the finish line and 45.9 km / h difference, the silver arrows were nevertheless in the front range. One may assume that there is still something of the engine. The low angle of incidence of the car also helps. For this the Mercedes W08 comes a bit wider therefore like the Red Bull.
The Renault teams were still driving with the hand brake applied. Despite the defects in the area of the MGU-K, the factory Renault had a speed gain of 40.9 km / h on the second part of the straight. Force India dropped slightly at 37.7 km / h. The Force India engineers know the problem. The side boxes are too wide. They will shrink to GP Spain when the smaller radiators are ready.
The McLaren Honda was on the finish line. After all, the car could increase by 38.6 km / h between the measuring points. This reveals that the electric motors seem to be the least problem on the Honda V6 turbo.
What is really worth the top speed will be shown by our Longrun analyzes. You have to put the speeds on the straight line and the target for a fair comparison also in relation to the circumstances. So enough fuel on board and engines in racing trim.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 32983.html
Top-Speed-Hitliste Barcelona F1-Test 2017
Team........Top-Speed......Speed Start/Ziel.....Differenz
Ferrari......340.6 km/h......293.4 km/h...........47.2 km/h
Williams....339.6 km/h......294.2 km/h...........45.4 km/h
Mercedes...338.5 km/h......292.6 km/h...........45.9 km/h
Haas F1.....333.3 km/h......291.1 km/h...........42.2 km/h
Red Bull....331.2 km/h......293.4 km/h...........37.8 km/h
Renault.....331.2 km/h......290.3 km/h...........40.9 km/h
Toro Ros....329.2 km/h......288.0 km/h...........41.2 km/h
Force In.....327.2 km/h......289.5 km/h...........37.7 km/h
Sauber.......325.3 km/h.....287.2 km/h............38.1 km/h
McLaren.....324.3 km/h......285.7 km/h...........38.6 km/h
The McLaren top speed may be skewed a little because I think the top speed was achieved when Alonso was towing behind Stroll in the 2nd Test
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 18:03
by Singabule
ncassi22 wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 17:35
So to the mathy guys how much difference is that in hp? Assuming equal drag/gearing/traction/etc for simplicity.
i would say about 80hp in this current state, but if derived from towing, its hard to predict. It is a detuned mode, or at least on the part throttle. I think they retard their combustion so much. If you listen the sound of honda on full throttle, it still deep compared to others, could be because of retarded ignition. Hope we'll see dramatic improvement in AUS compared to winter testing.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 18:20
by HPD
Chanman141 wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 17:50
HPD wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 15:22
Top-Speed-Hitliste Barcelona F1-Test 2017
Team........Top-Speed......Speed Start/Ziel.....Differenz
Ferrari......340.6 km/h......293.4 km/h...........47.2 km/h
Williams....339.6 km/h......294.2 km/h...........45.4 km/h
Mercedes...338.5 km/h......292.6 km/h...........45.9 km/h
Haas F1.....333.3 km/h......291.1 km/h...........42.2 km/h
Red Bull....331.2 km/h......293.4 km/h...........37.8 km/h
Renault.....331.2 km/h......290.3 km/h...........40.9 km/h
Toro Ros....329.2 km/h......288.0 km/h...........41.2 km/h
Force In.....327.2 km/h......289.5 km/h...........37.7 km/h
Sauber.......325.3 km/h.....287.2 km/h............38.1 km/h
McLaren.....324.3 km/h......285.7 km/h...........38.6 km/h
The McLaren top speed may be skewed a little because I think the top speed was achieved when Alonso was towing behind Stroll in the 2nd Test
Why only mclaren?.. 10 teams and only 1 was towed?..
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 21:12
by garrett
(First off I am sorry if this was written before but i didn´t find it on the 450 pages)
Didn´t the Porsche 919 V4 suffer from terrible vibrations in the beginning of the project? They had to change the firing order and to redesign the crankshaft which took 16 weeks until it was finished. After the redesign, the vibrations were almost gone. As the Porsche also recuperates thermal exhaust energy via MGU-H, what if the Honda has a similar issue when two cylinders are cut off and the engine basically runs as a V4 off throttle to save fuel? Maybe the resulting vibrations of that process could produce the sudden strange sound we hear at 0:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfIa4z8A08A? Or is it just the wastegate that opens?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 21:59
by godlameroso
I actually mentioned that, in response I was told that vibration in the chassis is not the same as internal engine harmonics, and should be irrelevant.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 22:04
by daniellammers
ncassi22 wrote: ↑19 Mar 2017, 17:35
So to the mathy guys how much difference is that in hp? Assuming equal drag/gearing/traction/etc for simplicity.
The gears are fixed for the whole season, so not really necessary in the calculations.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Mar 2017, 22:38
by godlameroso
This year you're actually allowed to have a change of ratios once during the season.