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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 16 Oct 2014, 16:40
by Juzh
trinidefender wrote:
From calculations done before it seems that the merc probably produces somewhere between 750 to 800 hp.
Juzh remember that this year the beam wing is gone and the rear wing is mandated to be shallower than previously. That is a sizeable downforce reduction over last year. Not to mention previous years exhaust sealed diffuser setup reduced power by a noticeable amount. Enough that when Williams removed it, they got back a fair bit of straight line speed.
800 seems reasonable.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 16 Oct 2014, 17:02
by Blanchimont
speedy56 wrote:Does anybody here maybe know aprox. dimension of the ICE and radiators (it isnt important which team, Im just curious how big they are)
You can get an idea of the dimensions, if you compare this picture
https://twitter.com/piusgasso/status/514478187922087937
and the following parts of the regulations on the mounting studs of the engine. Y is the vertical dimension and Z the lateral one, if i follow page 82 of the regulations. Normally Y would be the lateral and Z the vertical dimension.
5.3.4 All elements of the power unit specified in the relevant column of the table in Appendix 2 of these regulations must be installed in the union of the volumes that exist between two vertical planes normal to the car centre line separated by 700mm and in a box 150mm long, 250mm wide and 800mm high which lies symmetrically about the car centre line immediately ahead of the front vertical plane.
5.3.5 Power unit mountings may only comprise six M12 studs for connection to the survival cell and six M12 studs for connection to the transmission. All studs must be used and may be fitted on the survival cell, power unit or transmission. The installed end of the studs must be M12 and the free end may be a different diameter.
The mounting faces of the studs for connection to the survival cell must lie on the forward of the two planes described in Article 5.3.4 and be located at Y215/Z15(2), Y340/Z260(2) and Y175/Z420(2).
The mounting faces of the studs for connection to the transmission must lie on one vertical plane normal to the car centre line and be located at Y100/Z15(2), Y150/Z140(2) and Y255/Z345(2).
A tolerance of +/- 0.2mm will be permitted on all of the above dimensions, all dimensions refer to the centre of the studs.
The distance between the two planes is fixed at 480mm (+/-0.2mm).
Any part which provides an additional load path from the survival cell to the gearbox, with a connection to the power unit, may only do so if this is incidental to its principal purpose.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 16 Oct 2014, 18:44
by Tommy Cookers
Blanchimont wrote:
For 2015 there is a little change in the regulations. Is this of any importance for a supercharged engine?
"5.9.3 Variable length intake trumpets are forbidden in 2014 only."
using near-stoichiometric mixture needs only about 0.8 bar of supercharge (intake trumpets behaving as a 1.2 bar atmosphere)
variable length intake trumpets would be then be valuable (allowing a lower supercharge and less spoolup/more recovery)
though if a user of this mixture also used more supercharge and more 'back pressure'
these benefits (of variable length trumpets) could also be worthwhile (if recovery was not already at the mu-k power limit)
a much leaner-running engine would need a high pressure (Renault have quoted 3.5 bar abs ie 2.3 bar supercharge)
the benefits of variable length trumpets could also be worthwhile' (if recovery was not already at the mu-k power limit)
people have calculated the supercharge power at over 100 hp ? in this case, so at some rpm the benefit might be 15 hp ?
the ideal gu-h recovery would depend on the gu-k recovery, many tracks will not reach the energy use rule limiting gu-k recovery
M-B invented the variable length trumpet, for the 3 litre ('prototype sports') car in 1955, though they didn't race it
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 16 Oct 2014, 19:24
by mrluke
toraabe wrote:Juzh wrote:David1976 wrote:
How much power - in total - are these units producing these days?
I'd guess merc is probably pushing 850 to the ground, maybe a bit less.
Louts claims that the Mercedes engine has 85 hp more than the Renault, is smaller physical and is 18 kg lighter .
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 72712.html
Pretty poor show from the other mercedes teams to be beaten by RBR with an 85hp deficit.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 16 Oct 2014, 20:01
by speedy56
Blanchimont wrote:speedy56 wrote:Does anybody here maybe know aprox. dimension of the ICE and radiators (it isnt important which team, Im just curious how big they are)
You can get an idea of the dimensions, if you compare this picture
https://twitter.com/piusgasso/status/514478187922087937
and the following parts of the regulations on the mounting studs of the engine. Y is the vertical dimension and Z the lateral one, if i follow page 82 of the regulations. Normally Y would be the lateral and Z the vertical dimension.
Thank you! Just what I needed =D>
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 05:20
by Sasha
Is the Axial Flow Turbine legal?
Because one of the major reasons it doesn't work well with a standard turbo is because the compressor is too close to the turbine so it leads to bad intake flow to the axial turbine.The split turbo design solves that problem.
There was a rumor about Mercedes looking at it before we even knew they was going the split turbo route.
I think that is what they use in marine diesel engines for better efficiency.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 08:16
by wuzak
Sasha wrote:Is the Axial Flow Turbine legal?
Yes, it is. But it can only be a single stage turbine.
Same with the compressor.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 08:24
by xpensive
wuzak wrote:Sasha wrote:Is the Axial Flow Turbine legal?
Yes, it is. But it can only be a single stage turbine.
Same with the compressor.
Which means it can never produce the 1 Bar boost needed.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 12:45
by gruntguru
Axial compressors are more limited but single stage axial turbines can go quite high e.g.
http://www.napier-turbochargers.com/nt-range/
6.0 PR.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 17:43
by Sasha
Mercedes wouldn't use an Axial compressor because of rules of only one stage but an Axial turbine improves 'time-to-torque' that leads to better steady-state performance and with the fuel-meter the PU doesn't need the big rev difference as the NA engine.In simple terms a Axial turbine could turn the MGU-H and compressor at the sametime without hurting ICE performance better than a Radial turbine.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Oct 2014, 21:41
by Forza
According to the Omnicorse.it Mercedes HPP and Bosch are developing new direct fuel injection system that will be able to operate at full 500bar limit imposed by technical regulations.
Key notes/speculations from the article:
- new fuel injection system is beeing developed by HPP and Bosch in order to allow the use of full 500bar limit
- the new direct injection system is set to increase performance of the 2015 PU by around 40HP and a reduce its fuel consumption compared to 2014 PU
- current Mercedes system only usese half of the allowed fuel preassuere limit
- only engine manufactur that uses the 500bar capable fuel injection system in 2014 is Ferrari (Magneti Marelli system)
- Honda is also supposed to develop the 500bar capable fuel injection system
- Renault Sport however are not convinced that it is necessary to go beyond the 250 bar limit because of current instant consumption constraints at 10,500 rpm
Here is the source:
Mecrdes develops new direct fuel injection system

Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 20 Oct 2014, 00:54
by gruntguru
AFAIK the primary benefit of higher pressure is improved atomisation (smaller droplets).
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 20 Oct 2014, 01:07
by J.A.W.
Indeed, the issues of fuel efficiency/combustion stability/thermal control/power output are thusly related..
Here's a Kevin Cameron look at it..
http://www.dynotechresearch.com/blog/ar ... r=2013#298
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 20 Oct 2014, 04:08
by J.A.W.
This academic research paper provides recent empirical-experimental findings relating to high efficiency combustion..
https://ddl.stanford.edu/sites/default/ ... ngines.pdf
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 20 Oct 2014, 06:52
by ringo
Seems to be compression ignition. The F1 engine uses spark plugs...