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Nice idea with the H2, but marred with problems as mentioned. Most metals don't like H2 for long times, a bottle would be bulky, heavy and dangerous (and likely ilegal), a system to produce it in the car would be heavy, messy and likely too slow to produce enough, and yes, energy neutral at best.
So we are left as suggested in the article with "storing" H2 in the oil. In this case rather than direct power from the necessarily small amounts of H2 produced this way, we are left using efficiency improvements by the H2 helping to burn the normal fuel more completely. Possibly workable, but dubious, this thread is full of suggestions on how they could already be burning virtually all the fuel by having large excesses of air, and this solution would add very little on that.
I don't want to say impossible, but it appears unbased to me at this point.

But since we are in page 493 of the thread, I want to bring back another equally unbased theory initially thrown in here by some member (was it you, TC?) hundreds of pages back: allowing some oil in the cylinders to burn it there. My understanding is that this is normally an undesired side effect of the normal lubrication. Would it be impossible to allow, say, 5Kg of oil to be burned over a GP distance in this way? Would the resultant mess be too much for the poor engine? Have we seen any unusually large oil tanks?

Edit: OK, clearly it was TC and he just beat me to his own idea

It still staggers me that people think the Mercedes engines have some sort of magic bullet hidden inside.
Guys they have been working on this engines for 5+years, they started so early that they already had a V4 block cut until the regs changed.

The most logical conclusion and from what I hear it's simply a much more refined design, it's not one component, it's how EVERYTHING! interacts with each other, they were probably the ONLY supplier who ran the complete PU on the dyno also, and not just at the end of the development cycle...that alone could amount to 1sec a lap on a frozen PU.

What seems to not be talked about much is software! It's the glue which gets the MGUK/H synced to what is actually happening in the combustion chamber, exhaust pulses etc.

The software was where the other teams made good gains last year. It was evident that the Mercedes was in a move developed state when they hit testing. But good software is limited by the hardware it is controlling. Renault and Ferrari could only go so far last year. They should be closer this year.

Facts Only wrote:Ferrari Turbine and Wastegate Analysis


More interestingly Ferrari are running a wastegate with feed pipes the same diameter as the main exhaust secondary pipes allowing them to bypass 100% of the pressure through the wastegate. They are using a twin butterfly or rotational valve system. I have annotated the wastegate parts in blue, the second photo shows hydraulic feed and return hoses into the actuator and the linkage annotated in blue.
The large section wastegate feeds will be allow for a very aggressive overtake mode where the wastegate is fully open and the MGUH drives the turbo allowing for a fully boosted engine without the back pressure losses created by the Turbine wheel, used in conjunction with an aggressive map and full MGUK power this will give the highest possible engine power for a limited period and is often referred to on team radio.

Spotted this in the Marussia auction listing earlier:



Seems that the Ferrari engined cars were running an even more aggressive wastegate bypass than I thought with that large oval butterfly.
What I'm more surprised about though is that the teams were left to supply these themselves as 'chassis side' parts. It seems that Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault cover a full spectrum of wastegate supply, Mercedes supply it a a fully integrated part of the PU, Ferrari seem to specify a wastegate but the teams supply it and Renault let the teams work it out for themselves.

Loads of exhaust manifolds for sale:



Again it seems that the teams had to supply their own but they all look the same. Like wastegates Ferrari appear to have specified them but allowed each team to produce there own, unlike Mercedes who supplied them as part of the PU pack.... The Merc PU now seems like the bargain of the decade!

well spotted !

the headers don't all seem to be equal length ?
how different really is this manifold to the Mercedes's ? (after all the log vs tuned-length debate that many of us pitched into)

Who said we didn't need wastegates again?
We can go back a couple years. Any how that is a very good technique to get the overtaking power at it's maximum.
Dump power to MGUK and drive the MGUH with the waste gate full open; ramping up power if it's even just for a few seconds.
this can also work really well in qualifying. I remember one race where Alonso's battery wasn't fully charged for his hot lap.

How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

ringo wrote:Who said we didn't need wastegates again?
We can go back a couple years. Any how that is a very good technique to get the overtaking power at it's maximum.
Dump power to MGUK and drive the MGUH with the waste gate full open; ramping up power if it's even just for a few seconds.
this can also work really well in qualifying. I remember one race where Alonso's battery wasn't fully charged for his hot lap.

How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

While I guess there could be some advantage to this, it did not seem to work out well for Ferrari in 2014. I suspect Mercedes used all that Ferrari waste gate weight of the PU minimum for something that gave more advantage, maybe a more efficient turbine or MGU-H.

ringo wrote:Who said we didn't need wastegates again?
We can go back a couple years. Any how that is a very good technique to get the overtaking power at it's maximum.
Dump power to MGUK and drive the MGUH with the waste gate full open; ramping up power if it's even just for a few seconds.
this can also work really well in qualifying. I remember one race where Alonso's battery wasn't fully charged for his hot lap.

How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

I seem to recall you arguing that wastegates would be the primary control of turbo speed and boost. Not so much about overtaking.

ringo wrote:How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

Removing the exhaust backpressure ie going from about 2.5-3.0 Bar abs to 1.0 abs will reduce pumping MEP by 1.5 to 2.0 bar, resulting in a similar increase in BMEP. If BMEP is 36 bar, that would be a 4%-5% power increase.

VE and scavenge ratio will also increase but won't produce any power increase.

gruntguru wrote:

ringo wrote:How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

Removing the exhaust backpressure ie going from about 2.5-3.0 Bar abs to 1.0 abs will reduce pumping MEP by 1.5 to 2.0 bar, resulting in a similar increase in BMEP. If BMEP is 36 bar, that would be a 4%-5% power increase.
VE and scavenge ratio will also increase but won't produce any power increase.

surely ?? .....
if the exhaust pressure is dropped from eg 3 bar to 1 bar by wastegate engagement
the boost must similarly be dropped to maintain massflow and AFR (at whatever optimally efficient value was already in use)

when the boost is so dropped there will be little or no gain in crankshaft power
though the supercharging power will much less (helpful in this electric supercharging mode)
and this required 'turbo' rpm will be less, helpful as the turbine is now a burden

electric driving of the 'turbo' (fully or partially) will anyway be a normal, frequently used, mode
and at some times it will pay to forgo mgu-h generation

so, is there such an abnormal '1 shot' electric mode that will give this notional greatest (temporary) total power/acceleration ?
if boost is kept high (electrically driven) with exhaust dropped to ambient by wastegate the ICE acts somewhat as an air motor
but the inevitable extra air massflow (by raising of the AFR above the optimal efficiency value) will degrade ICE efficiency

Tommy Cookers wrote:well spotted !

the headers don't all seem to be equal length ?
how different really is this manifold to the Mercedes's ? (after all the log vs tuned-length debate that many of us pitched into)

It's like Ferrari couldn't decide what to do, Renault went for full power tuned exhausts, Mercedes went for minimum weight/size log exhausts and Ferrari did neither, the primaries don't appear to be fully tuned for maximum power yet they are still heavy (and high up) and taking up a lot of space.

Perhaps indicative of the mess Ferrari management have got into, maybe the mass re-shuffle will give them leadership and decision making they need.

A few weeks back in a thread someone had collated all the pics of the Ferrari Engine in the different cars including a picture of the Turbo separated from the PU.

Does anyone know where these pictures are (Thread and page no.) as I cant find them anywhere and I'd like to try and work out the Ferrari 'reverse compressor'

ringo wrote:Who said we didn't need wastegates again?
We can go back a couple years. Any how that is a very good technique to get the overtaking power at it's maximum.
Dump power to MGUK and drive the MGUH with the waste gate full open; ramping up power if it's even just for a few seconds.
this can also work really well in qualifying. I remember one race where Alonso's battery wasn't fully charged for his hot lap.

How much different will the engine behave when the turbo is basically operating like a super charger?

But how you drive MGUH with wastegate fully open? Or I`m misunderstanding.?

I mean, for full power (100% Throttle), you close wastegate (depending of MGUH capacity...), drive MGUH in generator mode and generate power for MGUK?
Or You are referenced to begining of transient conditions (early start for power demand)?

irsq4 wrote: But how you drive MGUH with wastegate fully open? Or I`m misunderstanding.?

I mean, for full power (100% Throttle), you close wastegate (depending of MGUH capacity...), drive MGUH in generator mode and generate power for MGUK?
Or You are referenced to begining of transient conditions (early start for power demand)?

you are misunderstanding the full power mode.
wastegate is fully open, allowing all the exhaust gas to bypass the turbine
the compressor is powered by the MGU-H in motor mode, using energy stored in the batteries
MGU-K is in motor mode too, using energy stored in the batteries

this will use up any stored energy pretty quickly, but for short periods it can give you a pretty good boost in power