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Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 08:49
by FW17
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 13:02
by bhall
Autosport wrote:Closed cockpits now appear to be inevitable in Formula 1, with technical chiefs set to ramp up efforts to bring them in following Fernando Alonso's lucky escape in the first lap crash at the Belgian Grand Prix.
[...]
"I think 2014 is intended, as we started the project a year ago," said Lowe, who has been involved in work on the cockpit project. "Personally I think something is inevitable because it is the one big [safety] exposure that we have got.
"You see it time and time again and think 'that was lucky'. One day it won't be lucky. At the same time it is an open cockpit formula so we have to protect that, but it should be technically possible one way or another."
[...]
Lowe says that an initial focus on canopy protection has now been abandoned, with tests highlighting that a bar/cage type design is much better.
"We have made a test piece and it has been tested structurally with various impacts, like firing wheels at it, and that was successful.
"So we understand some of the parameters in terms of the angles that are needed and the strength of the pieces. The work that is currently in progress is assessing its visibility, and we've done some work on the simulator with our interpretation.
"Ideally a driver wants nothing in the way, but in the same way as you drive a road car or even the old VW camper van with the centre pillar, you just get used to it don't you? We found that as long as the pillars don't get too big it is something you can get used to.
"So we have some parameters about pillar size, and now we are looking at making something with that pillar size and to the right strength requirement."
[...]
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 13:14
by myurr
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, unless I missed it, was that a lot of the energy from Grosjean's car completely missed Alonso and his car. Had a canopy been in place then more of that energy would have hit the car itself. Would a side impact into the car like that cause a deformation that would have endangered Alonso? Would hitting another object have then flipped Grosjean causing other problems for him? If they went for a bar would that have ripped parts from Grojeans car with some of them then entering the cockpit causing injury?
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 19:07
by bill shoe
We currently see the upper third of the driver helmet sticking proud of the tight-fitting pads and bodywork. We then congratulate ourselves for watching open-cockpit racing.
I think this roll cage consideration is a great opportunity to open up the sides and front of the car so we actually see the driver! Maybe see the driver's arms controlling the steering wheel! Maybe see enough of the driver's form to recognize them as human! Yes, yes.
Seriously, as we enter the era of computer-driven cars we need to open up the human cars so we can see the humans. This will be an important differentiator between computer vs human autosport.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 19:21
by N12ck
so paddy lowe is suggesting that they will have cages,, looks like this from driver view :
steering wheel off 3d warehouse
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 19:41
by raymondu999
Basically, an extension of what they have now, only the roll thing at the front is to prevent the driver's head from hitting the road if the car goes upside down. I was thinking actually... why not side walls instead? The raised cockpit sides, extend them higher and further forward.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 21:19
by myurr
How would that have helped in the Alonso / Grosjean crash? Alonso would still have had his head exposed, and Grosjeans car would have hit the roll hoop putting more energy into Alonso's car, therefore putting him in more danger, and possibly causing Grosjean's car to spin / flip over.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 23:07
by motorloon1993
upload pictures
Please forgive the awful rendering of this idea but how about this? First post by the way this is a fantastic forum that I read constantly, the grey curved bars are 4 roll bars one is out of view, the red dots represent the points were the cage bars attach. The black outline towards the front if the cockpit represents a windshield.
The cage and windshield can be detached using a button on the steering wheel or from a button on the car similar to the neutral gear button.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 23:11
by amouzouris
motorloon1993 wrote:http://s12.postimage.org/jt3dqqmm5/0_0_0_0.jpg
upload pictures
Please forgive the awful rendering of this idea but how about this? First post by the way this is a fantastic forum that I read constantly, the grey curved bars are 4 roll bars one is out of view, the red dots represent the points were the cage bars attach. The black outline towards the front if the cockpit represents a windshield.
The cage and windshield can be detached using a button on the steering wheel or from a button on the car similar to the neutral gear button.
and in case of a fire with a malfunctioning button the driver will burn...
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 03 Sep 2012, 23:14
by hollus
N12ck wrote:so paddy lowe is suggesting that they will have cages,, looks like this from driver view :
steering wheel off 3d warehouse
When you first posted that (thanks), you commented on how much of the field of view it actually covers. I remember being surprised by how little!
Now that it looks like things will go that way, I think that with just a bit of tweaking, the far bars could hide exactly behind (from the driver's position) those closest to the driver. Of course, the drivers have two eyes and also move a bit around, so it won't be quite exact, but it looks quite doable pretty much as it stands in your model.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 01:57
by bhall
raymondu999 wrote:Basically, an extension of what they have now, only the roll thing at the front is to prevent the driver's head from hitting the road if the car goes upside down. I was thinking actually... why not side walls instead? The raised cockpit sides, extend them higher and further forward.
That "roll thing" is aerodynamic. It works with the small wind screen to divert the air stream around the driver's helmet.
(Photo:
Schuberth)
The real "roll thing" is the front bulkhead of the chassis. As such, it will be interesting to see how any new movements in this direction affect chassis design.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 03:54
by agip
Please NO! [-o<
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 07:01
by FW17
raymondu999 wrote: only the roll thing at the front is to prevent the driver's head from hitting the road if the car goes upside down.
The current roll bar and cockpit bulkhead is spaced so that the helmet never touches the ground when upside down.
The front roll bar is to prevent large objects (like a tyre) from directly impacting the helmet.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 07:55
by MIKEY_!
Having seen how grosjean's car hit alonso's i realise the forward roll hoop is an even worse idea than i thought. it could have done serious damage to grosjean's car in a similar accident. It might puncture the sidepod, tearing radiator or fuel lines and the small cross-section of the hoop could cause it to damage other crash structures it impacts. we really do need something better.
Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops
Posted: 04 Sep 2012, 08:24
by myurr
MIKEY_! wrote:Having seen how grosjean's car hit alonso's i realise the forward roll hoop is an even worse idea than i thought. it could have done serious damage to grosjean's car in a similar accident. It might puncture the sidepod, tearing radiator or fuel lines and the small cross-section of the hoop could cause it to damage other crash structures it impacts. we really do need something better.
Completely agree. Not to mention it would be shredding Grosjean's car right in front of Alonso's face, with the possibility of parts, fluid, even fuel getting into Alonso's cockpit.
It would also have had the possibility of flipping Grosjean's car over if he were unlucky, which could have caused injury if he came down on top of another car.
It sounds like canopies have their own issues that have caused them to be dismissed though. Here too, instead of mostly missing Alonso's car Grosjean's car would have impacted on something and that could have made matters worse not better.
