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Huntresa wrote:

knabbel wrote:I think that the budget cap in F1 is indeed a reason to shift some of the development to a LMP1 team, that would make a lot of sense. But Ferrari must be very sure that a petrol engine can win over a diesel engine.

Wouldnt an LMP1 project mean they could develop their new F1 engine even more if they wanna use that in Le Mans ?

Not really, you wouldn't use an F1 engine at le mans. Different rules, different displacements, different durability requirements, etc.

Lycoming wrote:

Huntresa wrote:

knabbel wrote:I think that the budget cap in F1 is indeed a reason to shift some of the development to a LMP1 team, that would make a lot of sense. But Ferrari must be very sure that a petrol engine can win over a diesel engine.

Wouldnt an LMP1 project mean they could develop their new F1 engine even more if they wanna use that in Le Mans ?

Not really, you wouldn't use an F1 engine at le mans. Different rules, different displacements, different durability requirements, etc.

But they are gonna make the F1 engines avaible to use at Le Mans in LMP1 if they havent alrdy.

That's to make the switch easier.

LMP's have a vastly different rule set and requirements, making a F1 engine not a really great choice. To then develop it any further makes it too expensive.

The Hybrid rules promote a hybrid system far more open, which allows for smaller engines. For the non hybrids, which are mostly for the less wealthy teams, an F1 engine would be too expensive.

Lycoming wrote:

Huntresa wrote:

knabbel wrote:I think that the budget cap in F1 is indeed a reason to shift some of the development to a LMP1 team, that would make a lot of sense. But Ferrari must be very sure that a petrol engine can win over a diesel engine.

Wouldnt an LMP1 project mean they could develop their new F1 engine even more if they wanna use that in Le Mans ?

Not really, you wouldn't use an F1 engine at le mans. Different rules, different displacements, different durability requirements, etc.

Are the durability requirements really that much different now? I believe the new engines are expected to last around 5000 km, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a detuned F1 engine to last 6000 km.

GitanesBlondes wrote:Sadly I have to agree with Sombrero. I wonder if this is his way of firing a warning shot regarding the budget cap. It's a pity if Ferrari continues to avoid the prototype class at Le Mans, as it would be a great thing to see the Scuderia back in with a factory effort. It would also be of more benefit to their road car R&D than anything F1 does.

It's slightly more relevant, but LMP is still dominated by aero, which doesn't have any relevance in the real world. If the Hybrid rules were more open that that could be somewhat relevant, but I find it hard to believe a series which bans vvt is all that relevant to road cars.

Cold Fussion wrote: Are the durability requirements really that much different now? I believe the new engines are expected to last around 5000 km, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a detuned F1 engine to last 6000 km.

Kilometers is used to measure engine life because it's easy to record, not because it relates directly to loading and wear on the engines. On a typical F1 track, you spend 65% of your time on full throttle. At le mans, its 75%. Each segment of the mulsanne straight is a 20 second full throttle section. On average, a kilometer at Sarthe is harder than a kilometer in F1. On average, that is; spa and monza are comparable in all respects.

However, running at a lower power output and lower revs will improve durability immensely. It's not that much of a stretch for the 2014 engines to do le mans.

But you still wouldn't use an F1 engine at le mans. You have much more freedom in terms of configuration, the engine isn't designed for you by regulations which go so far as to specify V angle. You're allowed up to a 2 litre turbo or a 3.4 litre NA, and if you can make your engine produce the same power at lower revs, you can further improve reliability (for instance by ditching the pneumatic valvetrain). If you wanted to have a series go at WEC/Le Mans, especially if you're a big carmaker, you wouldn't just use a de-tuned F1 engine, you'd make your own Le Mans engine.

Obviously a tailor built engine will be the most optimal for LMP, however it is conceivable that a detuned (possibly stroked?) F1 engine could be competitive in LMP, so long as the reliability and fuel economy is comparable. LMP is as aero dependent as F1, and I would think minor engine deficiencies would be dwarfed by the aero.

To get back on my previous statement, yes, I do think an F1 engine could be competitive. But then, how competitive do you want to be? Do you want to win, or do you want to "be there"? If you want to win, then an F1 engine isn't a possibility. Yes, you could develop it, make changes and what not. But my guess is that then it would be more cost effective to just develop an LMP engine.

The only way I would see an F1 engine in LMP's is as a build up year. If Merc want's to make the switch for example, they could just run the engine, and use the year to learn.

A small possibility might be that the HPD's could get the option to run an F1 engine.

wesley123 wrote:To get back on my previous statement, yes, I do think an F1 engine could be competitive. But then, how competitive do you want to be? Do you want to win, or do you want to "be there"? If you want to win, then an F1 engine isn't a possibility. Yes, you could develop it, make changes and what not. But my guess is that then it would be more cost effective to just develop an LMP engine.

The only way I would see an F1 engine in LMP's is as a build up year. If Merc want's to make the switch for example, they could just run the engine, and use the year to learn.

A small possibility might be that the HPD's could get the option to run an F1 engine.

Just what you mean with HPDs? Supplier?

There is a manufacturer called HPD(Honda Performance Development) who delivers P2's(I believe P1's also). They originally started in 2007 as Acura's but since 2009 were renamed to HPD. Which pretty much is Honda's effort. Knowing they will return to F1 in 2015 there might be a (small) possibility we will see their engines in the HPD cars.

HPD already has good LMP1 and LMP2 engines to offer it's customer teams, so there would be no point to sticking an F1 engine derivative in the ARX-03. You would be spending money to develop a product that is inferior to something you already offer. Plus, I believe they have a new LMP2 engine on the way.

Also, I suspect an F1 derivative engine would have difficulty with the cost cap rules in LMP2.

Lycoming wrote:HPD already has good LMP1 and LMP2 engines to offer it's customer teams, so there would be no point to sticking an F1 engine derivative in the ARX-03. You would be spending money to develop a product that is inferior to something you already offer. Plus, I believe they have a new LMP2 engine on the way.

Also, I suspect an F1 derivative engine would have difficulty with the cost cap rules in LMP2.

Yes me also. If i had remember right all teams in LMP2 must race with serial engine. F1 engine certainly it is not serial and from that reason 100% doesnt meet financial rules.

But i most point it out. I dont know exact rules wordings in this class. So maybe i m wrong IF i heard AND remember or interpetated things wrong.

Lycoming wrote:

Cold Fussion wrote: Are the durability requirements really that much different now? I believe the new engines are expected to last around 5000 km, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a detuned F1 engine to last 6000 km.

Kilometers is used to measure engine life because it's easy to record, not because it relates directly to loading and wear on the engines. On a typical F1 track, you spend 65% of your time on full throttle. At le mans, its 75%. Each segment of the mulsanne straight is a 20 second full throttle section. On average, a kilometer at Sarthe is harder than a kilometer in F1. On average, that is; spa and monza are comparable in all respects.

yeh Le Man shouldn't be underestimated, I remember when BMW after a year of testing at other tracks had to withdraw at Le Man during the race with something as simple as wheel bearings overheating

Montezemolo is just posturing. I bet he will not go up against Porsche to be beaten and Ferrari simply do not have the resources to do a job even harder than F1 while they are in the doldrums in F1.

WhiteBlue wrote:Montezemolo is just posturing. I bet he will not go up against Porsche to be beaten and Ferrari simply do not have the resources to do a job even harder than F1 while they are in the doldrums in F1.

They haven't had a prototype since forever they know it is hard, and they haven't got much to gain
Much better to let others run Ferraris so if they win a Ferrari won, if they lose a team running a Ferrari lost

Mark Webber, the new LeMans-oracle
https://twitter.com/AussieGrit/status/4 ... 4683286528