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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:14
by dans79
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:14
by nzjrs
stevesingo wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 14:49
It is obvious to all who watch F1 that there is a plethora of PU modes available. Q mode, Overtake, various strategies for fuel consumption/power balance, safety car, VSC on and on. How on earth are the FiA going to distinguish which modes are permissible? Banning our Q mode? OK. We have a new mode called max power and is available at any time during the event, it is not a Q only mode though. No siree.
To an extent. The point of my previous post was to indicate / check that there were certain negative SOC modes that only make sense in qualy / (the last lap of the race?) and ponder if these are the sort of things that make the majority of the difference.
Henry pointed out that he thinks probably SOC cycling that is a big consideration on wear and performance here, which is an interesting point.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:17
by henry
Lax wording again,
"in order to address the above concerns in the future, we will be requiring that during the qualifying session and the race, the PU should operate in a single mode,"
Is that one discrete mode for both or one discrete mode for each? As for what they mean by mode?
In the end the team that has something in hand will have something hand no matter how they tinker. Race pace is almost exclusively tyre limited, if they have to use one PU mode for both qualy and Race the best teams will write a more sophisticated mode that recognises when a driver isn’t pushing and drops output, and system stress, accordingly.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:17
by El Scorchio
Big Tea wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:11
basti313 wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 13:31
El Scorchio wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 12:56
So silly. It's like telling Usain Bolt he needs to run the 100 metres in flip flops just to give the others a chance.
Yet again it's punishing innovation and encouraging mediocrity. Why bother pushing to be the best when you can just whinge until someone slaps down a handicap on your competitor?
Things like this could really make engine manufacturers think genuinely 'Why am i bothering to spend this money in this sport if they aren't letting me show what my product is capable of?'
Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...
But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.
I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.
But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.
It is being used as an excuse by other teams
Very good point. The Mercedes powered teams sit 1st, 5th and 10th in the constructors standings. (Granted RP could be 3rd without points deducted, but their performance this season is more chassis related than engine related) It's about much more than just the engine as to how a team fares.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:38
by 63l8qrrfy6
henry wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:17
In the end the team that has something in hand will have something hand no matter how they tinker. Race pace is almost exclusively tyre limited, if they have to use one PU mode for both qualy and Race the best teams will write a more sophisticated mode that recognises when a driver isn’t pushing and drops output, and system stress, accordingly.
Exactly the point I was going to make next.
They would have to define what constitutes an engine map in order to define what a change in engine map is.
What is stopping a team from creating a mode that recognizes a slow qualy outlap and then triggers a qualy map on the last corner before the finish line ? We already know they use GPS data to control harvest and deployment behaviour.
How do they expect to word a complex new regulation and have the teams comply by Spa ?
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:40
by stevesingo
I can see it coming. Post race interviews;
2nd placed driver, "I had a great tyre offset and was gaining on P1, but couldn't get close enough to mount an attack because I didn't have the full use of the PU due to the fixed mode".
The excitement of the two Austrian races was facilitated by Lando using the more extreme engine modes available.
Without the ability to turn up the PU, the viewer will likely be robbed of the racing opportunities they present.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:41
by Just_a_fan
Do the rules still require the first lap to be run in a particular map (to prevent launch control)? If so, just make the first lap map and the qualifying map the same map. There are a number of ways that the teams will get around such a change and, yet again, the best teams will do better.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:42
by nzjrs
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:38
henry wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:17
In the end the team that has something in hand will have something hand no matter how they tinker. Race pace is almost exclusively tyre limited, if they have to use one PU mode for both qualy and Race the best teams will write a more sophisticated mode that recognises when a driver isn’t pushing and drops output, and system stress, accordingly.
Exactly the point I was going to make next.
They would have to define what constitutes an engine map in order to define what a change in engine map is.
What is stopping a team from creating a mode that recognizes a slow qualy outlap and then triggers a qualy map on the last corner before the finish line ? We already know they use GPS data to control harvest and deployment behaviour.
If they go in the direction of regulating this like Parc ferme then I imagine such automatic changes would be seen as not allowed using similar argumentation used to punish Renault for the automatic brake bias adjustment.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:42
by Sieper
Big Tea wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:11
basti313 wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 13:31
El Scorchio wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 12:56
So silly. It's like telling Usain Bolt he needs to run the 100 metres in flip flops just to give the others a chance.
Yet again it's punishing innovation and encouraging mediocrity. Why bother pushing to be the best when you can just whinge until someone slaps down a handicap on your competitor?
Things like this could really make engine manufacturers think genuinely 'Why am i bothering to spend this money in this sport if they aren't letting me show what my product is capable of?'
Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...
But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.
I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.
But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.
It is being used as an excuse by other teams
That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.
Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:48
by 63l8qrrfy6
nzjrs wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:42
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:38
henry wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:17
In the end the team that has something in hand will have something hand no matter how they tinker. Race pace is almost exclusively tyre limited, if they have to use one PU mode for both qualy and Race the best teams will write a more sophisticated mode that recognises when a driver isn’t pushing and drops output, and system stress, accordingly.
Exactly the point I was going to make next.
They would have to define what constitutes an engine map in order to define what a change in engine map is.
What is stopping a team from creating a mode that recognizes a slow qualy outlap and then triggers a qualy map on the last corner before the finish line ? We already know they use GPS data to control harvest and deployment behaviour.
If they go in the direction of regulating this like Parc ferme then I imagine such automatic changes would be seen as not allowed using similar argumentation used to punish Renault for the automatic brake bias adjustment.
Auto brake bias was deemed a driver aid and an advantage over drivers changing it manually.
The 'smart map' is not a driver aid just as changing spark advance automatically with engine speed, load and other conditions is not a driver aid.
Since drivers will no longer be changing modes physically on the steering wheel I don't think you can make the same argument.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:57
by 63l8qrrfy6
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:41
Do the rules still require the first lap to be run in a particular map (to prevent launch control)? If so, just make the first lap map and the qualifying map the same map. There are a number of ways that the teams will get around such a change and, yet again, the best teams will do better.
I think this is entirely covered by the regulations dealing with engine torque output as a function of pedal position as well as the fact that the MGUK is inactive below a certain car speed.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 15:58
by Big Tea
Sieper wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:42
Big Tea wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:11
basti313 wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 13:31
Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...
But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.
I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.
But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.
It is being used as an excuse by other teams
That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.
Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.
But until they copied the CAR of Mercedes having the engine left them back among the pack. They have had the engine several years and not been top 3 contenders.
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 16:02
by RZS10
Knowing how garbage the FIA is at 1)writing and 2)enforcing their own rules and TDs this will be a total mess.
If they limit it to one "engine mode" does that include the throttle, ERS and engine maps? Or will those be treated seperately? Those and an endless number of other questions that the FIA probably can't even answer properly ...
The "alone and unaided" rule has long been ignored for ERS mapping for example, those cars deploy based on track position, right? They'll keep that but will disallow "modes" based on the same rule?
Of course this is clearly aimed at Mercedes but ironically i think that if they were to reduce it all to "1 mode" then it will very likely be Merc who will run their engine 'sharper' than anyone else on the grid - it sure as hell will not be Ferrari
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 16:02
by El Scorchio
stevesingo wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:40
I can see it coming. Post race interviews;
2nd placed driver, "I had a great tyre offset and was gaining on P1, but couldn't get close enough to mount an attack because I didn't have the full use of the PU due to the fixed mode".
The excitement of the two Austrian races was facilitated by Lando using the more extreme engine modes available.
Without the ability to turn up the PU, the viewer will likely be robbed of the racing opportunities they present.
True- and imagine if in the last race Max was sitting behind the two Mercs on their chewed up tyres but was stuck with GRANNY mode® and unable to push home his advantage?
Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021
Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 16:03
by nzjrs
Mudflap wrote: ↑13 Aug 2020, 15:48
Auto brake bias was deemed a driver aid and an advantage over drivers changing it manually.
Oops, I misremembered, sorry about that.