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Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 16:17
by dren
The plug-n-play aspect really decreases the benefits the works teams currently have. I don't like mandating being able to hot swap PUs. I'm sure TR and Mclaren would argue otherwise.
I don't expect the PUs to be much louder with 3000rpms more yet still corked by a turbine.
So now the ES is standard, the controls are standard, the way the block is to be built is damn near standard, the turbine has tighter limits, and the fuel will be tighter regulated. Depending on how tight the fuel is regulated could standardize combustion design. We might as well just have one PU supplier at this point.
F1 is once again an aero formula. Red Bull is probably ecstatic.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 17:01
by F1NAC
will there be any use now from putting compressor on one side and TC on other? Without MGU-H there will be very long shaft that is connecting C and TC and losses with longer shaft are there, vibrations?
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 17:42
by Jolle
F1NAC wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 17:01
will there be any use now from putting compressor on one side and TC on other? Without MGU-H there will be very long shaft that is connecting C and TC and losses with longer shaft are there, vibrations?
If it's allowed (there are some idea's in the new rules about size and weight), there are still the same advantages: Better heat management, not restricted with the diameter of the compressor (because of the driveshaft) and the length of the intake. I don't think the electro motor/generator works as a big help to stop vibrations/torsions. I think it would be even easier, with less weight and forces on the shaft. Just some extra bearings
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 17:54
by GPR-A duplicate2
Doesn't look like there is a large scale acceptance for this PROPOSAL.
WOLFF: THIS IS THEIR VISION AND WE HAVEN’T ACCEPTED IT
Formula 1 world champions and engine suppliers Mercedes have cast doubt on the new engine regulations proposed for the pinnacle of the sport in 2021.
Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he has “strong scepticism” about whether the ideas are the right way forward.
An outline of potential rules has been published by governing body the FIA and commercial rights holder the F1 Group.
“This is their vision and proposal and we haven’t accepted it. The flaw of the concept is that it’s a completely new engine and new investment,” said Wolff.
But Wolff said he was “surprised” that the FIA had published so much detail on the new engine when the manufacturers had been told in a meeting on the same day that the plans were “a proposal of a vision for 2021” that would be subject to further discussion and refinement at F1’s various rule-making entities.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:05
by dren
That's not surprising. Renault and Mercedes have been against the 'dumbed down' turbo units. I'm not sure where Ferrari stands.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:39
by ripper
Rumors from Italy say that Ferrari is aligned with Mercedes and Renault.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:41
by marmer
morrisond wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 15:07
Allowing Electric Turbo's would have been really neat and Road relavent.
adds weight to the turbo just to get around lag and if your more thinking of a electric supercharger they are less efficient than an energy store to a motor on the wheels.
braking force to store then use on motor
braking force to store then spin up a turbo or supercharger to then compress air is not worth it
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:45
by Jolle
To me it feels like this new directive should have been the PU spec instead of the very limited V8 2.4's before the current PU.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:48
by draw73
I really like the current engines. I’ve never been to a race so don’t have an opinion on the noise levels. I feel if they were to limit the amount of energy that could be sent from the MGU-H to the MGU-K it might level the field a little bit. I think that this maybe Mercedes edge allowing them to run the MGU-K longer than any other team.
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Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:57
by McMrocks
marmer wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 18:41
morrisond wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 15:07
Allowing Electric Turbo's would have been really neat and Road relavent.
adds weight to the turbo just to get around lag and if your more thinking of a electric supercharger they are less efficient than an energy store to a motor on the wheels.
braking force to store then use on motor
braking force to store then spin up a turbo or supercharger to then compress air is not worth it
I can't agree completely with that. A 1.6Litre N/A won't be competitive in Formula 1.
I think you vastly underestimate the power benefit possible by turbocharging. You can't even reach the 100kg/h fuel burn rate without super-charging a 1.6l engine.
However i agree with you that a "electric" turbo charger has a lower efficiency than the normal turbo chargers we have seen and build for years, which proved to be quite nice
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 20:37
by foxmulder_ms
so, nothing about 4-wheel drive?
I was kid of hoping to see 4-wheel drive F1 cars
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 21:54
by McMrocks
foxmulder_ms wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 20:37
so, nothing about 4-wheel drive?
I was kid of hoping to see 4-wheel drive F1 cars
I think i remember some people claiming that the current engine formula is near the maximum of what they can harvest from the rear wheels. A electric generator/engine at the front would make sense if that was true.
(Cars got heavier -> more kinetic energy to recover?)
However it would increase the weight of the cars. IMO they should lose some weight. A lot of weight to be honest. MGUH disappearing is a good start tough
Edit: i'm curious to see what solutions the teams would come up with when it comes to integrating the generators in the front wheel hubs. The rear wheels are connected to a single generator via the driveshaft. It will be a lot more difficult at the front axle
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 22:14
by roon
I wonder if Merc would continue developing the split-turbo sans MGU-H. Too massive?
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 22:36
by 63l8qrrfy6
roon wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 22:14
I wonder if Merc would continue developing the split-turbo sans MGU-H. Too massive?
It sounds like FIA intend to impose weight and size limits on turbos, most likely with the purpose of getting rid of expensive to develop split arrangements. Very dissapointing.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 01 Nov 2017, 23:22
by Just_a_fan
Both Mercedes and Renault unhappy about the new engine proposal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41833948
Issue is that it will be a whole new development cost.