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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 17 Feb 2015, 03:11
by gruntguru
Blanchimont wrote:Does the Bosch Handbook also tell something about direct injected (turbo-)engines?
There is a section on direct injection but not specifically WRT turbo or best efficiency AFR. Benefits of stratified charge mentioned include:
1. Very lean mixture -> de-throttling -> reduced pumping losses ->
"considerable fuel saving potential". (Page 564.)
2. Significant knock suppression benefit. (Page 564.) CR range 11 - 14 possible. (Page 377)
3. Reduced heat to cylinder walls. (Page 564.)
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 17 Feb 2015, 04:23
by FW17
dren wrote:I'm going to say no. I can't view your posted video, but I'm guesing you mean injecting water into the charge air.
7.6 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the charge air, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.14.
I am not sure if there is going to be phase change in water by injecting it into a high pressure volume of air; it most probably going to remain as fine droplets and part of it changing phase. Not sure if 7.6 would be completely applicable
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 17 Feb 2015, 04:42
by gruntguru
5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 17 Feb 2015, 17:57
by PlatinumZealot
WilliamsF1 wrote:dren wrote:I'm going to say no. I can't view your posted video, but I'm guesing you mean injecting water into the charge air.
7.6 Cooling systems :
The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the charge air, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in Article 5.14.
I am not sure if there is going to be phase change in water by injecting it into a high pressure volume of air; it most probably going to remain as fine droplets and part of it changing phase. Not sure if 7.6 would be completely applicable
There will be a phase change. However you want to take it that water will vapourize before combustion.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 17 Feb 2015, 21:06
by mrluke
gruntguru wrote:5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.
What if you dont "spray" it in.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 18 Feb 2015, 00:53
by J.A.W.
Rule wording change then applies.. "Delete 'spraying' & substitute 'addition'.. ..isn't that S.O.P.?
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 18 Feb 2015, 07:48
by wuzak
mrluke wrote:gruntguru wrote:5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.
What if you dont "spray" it in.
What else would you do? Pour it in?
In any case, I'm not certain that water injection improves efficiency.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 18 Feb 2015, 13:37
by dren
gruntguru wrote:5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.
Ah yes, that was the other regulation I was looking for and couldn't find it.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 18 Feb 2015, 14:56
by FW17
mrluke wrote:gruntguru wrote:5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.
What if you dont "spray" it in.
You mean like a carburetor
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 00:06
by mrluke
J.A.W. wrote:Rule wording change then applies.. "Delete 'spraying' & substitute 'addition'.. ..isn't that S.O.P.?
I dont ..... this comment.
Mostly I was thinking its a pretty crap choice of words (coming from somebody who writes contracts for a living) but then again it is par for the course.
You could squirt something in and maybe get away with it, no worse than hole vs slot.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 05:03
by J.A.W.
What "something" would you "squirt" in?
Maybe send the drivers in to race with full bladders & have a conveniently located 'pee tube' ?
You know, for a bit of extra overtaking turbo-boost ADI?
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 05:35
by theloniousmonk
Throughout the race, collect driver sweat and piss into a chamber, use an RO system so that the urea, sodium etc. dont build up and corrode the engine.
Then have a Draw Through Carb system so it avoids the restrictions that a blow through system has (and no question as to whether its suction pressure drawing water in).
???
Profit.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 06:01
by J.A.W.
Yeah, sounds reasonable..( in the context of the equally ludicrous 'rules' anyhow..)
&/or a 'coolant blow off valve' ( using discretely circulated/compatible fluid) like-wise 'incidentally' located..
.. to provide water vapour as ADI..
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 07:00
by wuzak
mrluke wrote:You could squirt something in and maybe get away with it, no worse than hole vs slot.
If you squirt something, which implies it is under pressure, how does it not become a spray?
The whole slots vs hole thing is, IMO, not what happened for the double diffuser. What mattered was where those slots/holes were in the floor - ie not on the surfaces viewed from below.
Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 19 Feb 2015, 18:17
by PlatinumZealot
Source of water in an F1 car.
Driver drinks bottle... 2 liters
Driver bladder (piss bag)...... 0.5 liters
Therefore you now have 2.5 liters of water to spray into the intake duct. This should be enough for a good number of overtaking events during the race.