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Morteza wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 13:00

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/14 ... 6511698947

With 350kW of electric power we could see combined HP figures well above 1000 HP if we take today's ICU's output...or will we see the ICU being tamed down?

Santozini wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:14

Morteza wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 13:00

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/14 ... 6511698947

With 350kW of electric power we could see combined HP figures well above 1000 HP if we take today's ICU's output...or will we see the ICU being tamed down?

And what will it run off, magic?

Without the H, itt won't be more than a large kers.

I think that also -H would not be enough to feed 350kw...also because it is likely that they want electric power to be deployed for longer time than now...If they will use green fuel I don't see any other option than extracting the requested energy from the ICE someway...use it also as a direct generator not only from incidental excess kinetic and heat energy

Hope they think of some way recover part of the energy from the front from the MGU at the back.

Maybe some hydraulic pump or something like that connected from the front wheels to the MGU at the rear.

mzso wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:23

Santozini wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:14

Morteza wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 13:00

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/14 ... 6511698947

With 350kW of electric power we could see combined HP figures well above 1000 HP if we take today's ICU's output...or will we see the ICU being tamed down?

And what will it run off, magic?

Without the H, itt won't be more than a large kers.

Just stating what is in the article, didn't come up with the number myself. I guess we will have to wait and see, but I can assure you that if it does, it won't be off magic

Current ICUs put out over 800hp alone, so if electric power in 2026 comes anywhere near the stated 350kW, we are in for very powerful power units!

motobaleno wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:56

I think that also -H would not be enough to feed 350kw...also because it is likely that they want electric power to be deployed for longer time than now...If they will use green fuel I don't see any other option than extracting the requested energy from the ICE someway...use it also as a direct generator not only from incidental excess kinetic and heat energy

I guess the K could work as a generator outside of brake regen, when the engine is delivering power.

mzso wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:23

Santozini wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:14

Morteza wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 13:00

https://twitter.com/autosport/status/14 ... 6511698947

With 350kW of electric power we could see combined HP figures well above 1000 HP if we take today's ICU's output...or will we see the ICU being tamed down?

And what will it run off, magic?

Without the H, itt won't be more than a large kers.

Exactly right, the mguh currently provides approximately 75 to 80% of the electrical power that runs the current 120kW mguk. Even if they eliminate the rear brakes they still won't generate enough electrical energy to operate the 350kW mguk for anywhere close to as long as they operate it now.

I don't see these regs coming into fruition, remember how they were to get rid of the mguh last time so that VAG would join, and they still didn't, and they probably still won't.

ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑

17 Dec 2021, 00:11

mzso wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:23

Santozini wrote: ↑

16 Dec 2021, 14:14

With 350kW of electric power we could see combined HP figures well above 1000 HP if we take today's ICU's output...or will we see the ICU being tamed down?

And what will it run off, magic?

Without the H, itt won't be more than a large kers.

Exactly right, the mguh currently provides approximately 75 to 80% of the electrical power that runs the current 120kW mguk. Even if they eliminate the rear brakes they still won't generate enough electrical energy to operate the 350kW mguk for anywhere close to as long as they operate it now.

I don't see these regs coming into fruition, remember how they were to get rid of the mguh last time so that VAG would join, and they still didn't, and they probably still won't.

From that, without them venturing into harvesting from the front axle, the hybrid-ness (hybridity???) of F1 is much reduced (almost to the point of inconsequential), a boost-button that can only be used every third lap??
The only way that I can see them being able to use 350kW (using only the rear axle) for any significant period of time is to operate the drivetrain as a series hybrid with parallel KERS. Utilising the ICE/motor drive as a generator when ‘off-throttle’.
I would imagine that removal of the MGUH would lead to lower ICE performance (and efficiency) as they are currently utilising this to fill ‘gaps’ in the power curve, which would lead to terrible power delivery and drivability. A series hybrid solution would allow for this.
I have suggested on previous occasions my thoughts on the 2019 Ferrari engine ‘trick’ and how they were doing something along these lines (as opposed to defeating the fuel-flow device). I won’t go back into it here (nobody seems to agree!), but if you are interested in my thoughts on this, please PM me and it can be discussed at length! (It explains the lack of penalty, why the regulations were re-worded and explains why they were so handicapped after the introduction of the ban).

I’d love To see them change to the simpler system Porsche used on the 919 which simply harvests exhaust gas energy without the complexity of electrically spinning up the turbo.

djos wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2021, 09:54

I’d love To see them change to the simpler system Porsche used on the 919 which simply harvests exhaust gas energy without the complexity of electrically spinning up the turbo.

There was a team in (Japanese) GT500 that was using a Toyota V8 with a GUH on a naturally aspirated engine. The Porsche system was very clever in its use of technology as it utilised a ‘normal’ turbo for the engine and the GUH for recovery. Probably because they had an eye on reliability at the outset. They would probably work it differently now that the technology is proven in F1 (there are also commercially available turbo-GUH units (Pankl - think- manufacture one), I don’t think that they operate as motor-drives for the turbo. The intention is to utilise them as power generation for hybrid drive (allowing a reduction in ICE size and charging while the engine runs). Not sure whether any production cars are using them yet, but would be a sensible addition to a plug-in hybrid such as a BMW 330e!

Stu wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2021, 10:15

There was a team in (Japanese) GT500 that was using a Toyota V8 with a GUH on a naturally aspirated engine.

interesting ...
this (with NA) was done c. 1941 by the NACA using a 'mechanical GU-H' ie recovery turbine

How sure it will be 350kw for both regeneration and deployment?

Can it be asymmetrical? Like 350kw regen, 175kw deployment. Or 600kw regen, 350kw deployment?

the total rear axle braking power will fall (plummet) below 350 kW as speed falls below what ? - 200 kph ?

ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑

17 Dec 2021, 00:11

Exactly right, the mguh currently provides approximately 75 to 80% of the electrical power that runs the current 120kW mguk. Even if they eliminate the rear brakes they still won't generate enough electrical energy to operate the 350kW mguk for anywhere close to as long as they operate it now.

Well, there's the ability to drive the K as a generator with the ICE, that was pointed out. Though it surely would be less efficient, since the H actually recovered energy from the exhaust.

Is it even known how much energy they actually recovered with the H? I mean actual recovery, and not just running the ICE otherwise uselessly.

Stu wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2021, 09:38

The only way that I can see them being able to use 350kW (using only the rear axle) for any significant period of time is to operate the drivetrain as a series hybrid with parallel KERS. Utilising the ICE/motor drive as a generator when ‘off-throttle’.

Uh, what? Both series and parallel? The K sits on the crankshaft and can be used in parallel to both generate and to provide power.
By off throttle you mean during braking? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to hear screaming engines in some of the slowest turns.

Stu wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2021, 09:38

I would imagine that removal of the MGUH would lead to lower ICE performance (and efficiency) as they are currently utilising this to fill ‘gaps’ in the power curve, which would lead to terrible power delivery and drivability. A series hybrid solution would allow for this.

Definitely efficiency, the K could compensate for power, but why would you call it "series"?

djos wrote: ↑

18 Dec 2021, 09:54

I’d love To see them change to the simpler system Porsche used on the 919 which simply harvests exhaust gas energy without the complexity of electrically spinning up the turbo.

So how does it harvest (and store?) then?