F1technical.net

godlameroso wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 01:19

Would throttling with a blow-off valve/bypass-valve be worth it?

With a "normal" turbo the only way you have to stop the compressor surge caused by the throttle upstream closing was to use a Blow off valve. But there is an entirely different option when you have the ability to control turbo shaft speed electronically. And since the cars are DBW they know exactly when the surge is coming before it happens...

i get excited at the thought of this turbo technology trickling down to the hands of regular people.

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 01:41

godlameroso wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 01:19

Would throttling with a blow-off valve/bypass-valve be worth it?

With a "normal" turbo the only way you have to stop the compressor surge caused by the throttle upstream closing was to use a Blow off valve.

You mean "downstream". Upstream throttling does not cause surge.

Yes I meant downstream. My bad. My brain is fried today.

Upstream throttling is awesome

Yes, I am a fan of upstream throttling myself.

Thanks for the "thrust forces" diagram. I didn't consider the pressure acting on the back of the wheel(s).

No problem. The forces are quite complex for something so simple.
Imagine adding an MGU-H into the mix.

Something to ponder - the MHU-H motor used in F1 turbos are the fastest accelerating motors ever built. Amazing.

The MGU-H is probably the most secretive and expensive individual component on the car itself. It would be interesting to have one on a road car, but I just don't see it happening unless it's on a multi-million dollar hyper car. Even then, they can just stuff a bigger engine in there for the same effect.

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 04:37

No problem. The forces are quite complex for something so simple.
Imagine adding an MGU-H into the mix.

Something to ponder - the MHU-H motor used in F1 turbos are the fastest accelerating motors ever built. Amazing.

Are you sure?
Mach speed?
Faster than the ~100 G's of the rocket motor of a guided missile?

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 06:48

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 04:37

No problem. The forces are quite complex for something so simple.
Imagine adding an MGU-H into the mix.

Something to ponder - the MHU-H motor used in F1 turbos are the fastest accelerating motors ever built. Amazing.

Are you sure?
Mach speed?
Faster than the rocket motor of an air-to-air missile?

Think angular acceleration.
I should have specified electric motor.

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 06:49

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 06:48

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 04:37

No problem. The forces are quite complex for something so simple.
Imagine adding an MGU-H into the mix.

Something to ponder - the MHU-H motor used in F1 turbos are the fastest accelerating motors ever built. Amazing.

Are you sure?
Mach speed?
Faster than the rocket motor of an air-to-air missile?

Think angular acceleration.
I should have specified electric motor.

Even so, some scale model racers might well have quicker units..
Like the dreaded "Mabuchi meltdown"

godlameroso wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 04:42

The MGU-H is probably the most secretive and expensive individual component on the car itself. It would be interesting to have one on a road car, but I just don't see it happening unless it's on a multi-million dollar hyper car. Even then, they can just stuff a bigger engine in there for the same effect.

Agree, and electric supercharger solve the lag issue with much cheaper cost. Throttle is limited in production cars, hence no point in developing mguh

According to pictures from Bahrain test Ferrari have not adopted Mercedes’ signature split-turbo design,they still have the compressor and turbine at the back of the unit.This proves that this concept is not wrong at all, and it can be exploited as successful.

alexa wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 07:51

According to pictures from Bahrain test Ferrari have not adopted Mercedes’ signature split-turbo design,they still have the compressor and turbine at the back of the unit.This proves that this concept is not wrong at all, and it can be exploited as successful.

I still think the main advantage of the split turbo is packaging. Not going to make any significant difference to power.

wuzak wrote:

alexa wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 07:51

According to pictures from Bahrain test Ferrari have not adopted Mercedes’ signature split-turbo design,they still have the compressor and turbine at the back of the unit.This proves that this concept is not wrong at all, and it can be exploited as successful.

I still think the main advantage of the split turbo is packaging. Not going to make any significant difference to power.

I thought the packaging advantage would allow you to have the ideal sized compressor. Which itself has its gains

In the current F1 turbos the discharge valve is not the main overpressure controller, it is the MGU-H which in recharging mode slows down the turbo speed. The MGU-H should not be the most expensive or complicated, in my opinion should be electronic management, make everything work at the right time.

JonoNic wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 08:44

wuzak wrote:

alexa wrote: ↑

21 Apr 2017, 07:51

According to pictures from Bahrain test Ferrari have not adopted Mercedes’ signature split-turbo design,they still have the compressor and turbine at the back of the unit.This proves that this concept is not wrong at all, and it can be exploited as successful.

I still think the main advantage of the split turbo is packaging. Not going to make any significant difference to power.

I thought the packaging advantage would allow you to have the ideal sized compressor. Which itself has its gains

Don't think compressor size is limited by putting it in a cradle between gearbox and engine

Ferrari have the shortest routing for air with the inter cooler sitting in the V of the engine. They have done something totally different with the intake plenum. Something clever in the way they have made it, if the accommodated the Variable lengths with it, it will be one incredible design.

PS: Somehow the Honda engine thread has become the all engine discussion thread