Page 557 of 1333
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 04 May 2017, 08:55
by J.A.W.
wuzak wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 08:08
J.A.W. wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 05:38
"HCCI is limited in terms of rpm, torque, & operational band, or range... we've research both ( HCCI & HLSI), of course."
F1 engines also make race-pace within an "rpm... limited... operational band..." too, of course..
I believe HCCI is limited to a lower rpm operation band. That is, it may work at 2,000 - 6,000rpm, but won't work at 10,000 - 12,000rpm.
That is fair enough.. ..if we go by published research articles & current production units on sale..
..but AFAIR, Honda has experimental data relating to high speed HCCI characteristics going back to their `60s G.P. bikes..
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 04 May 2017, 17:31
by GoranF1
Engine upgrades in Spain, confirmes Vandoorne.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 04 May 2017, 17:37
by loner
GoranF1 wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 17:31
Engine upgrades in Spain, confirmes Vandoorne.
could be the post Bahrain test changes to allow them to mix it in the midfield until the huge upgrade debut some point in mid season
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 04 May 2017, 18:26
by GoranF1
loner wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 17:37
GoranF1 wrote: ↑04 May 2017, 17:31
Engine upgrades in Spain, confirmes Vandoorne.
could be the post Bahrain test changes to allow them to mix it in the midfield until the huge upgrade debut some point in mid season
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vand ... en-901635/
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 04 May 2017, 20:16
by etusch
He says that his pace is good as much as str, williams at sochi which is need good power on engine side, until he slow down for fuel save. So at spain, I think, they will be better even without engine update. And I think Alonso would be better position If he (could) start the race normally.
So with new update, if they could use engine in same power without saving fuel, they can be better than sochi. This is what I understand from his statement. May be wishfull thinking.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 01:03
by Wazari
Hi all! Since I have received some inquiries and have ignored almost all of you (sorry) I am taking the lazy route and will try and answer most of your questions in one post. I have not stayed current with this thread so if I'm repeating some things or posting something no longer relevant, I apologize in advance.
Yes I am disappointed and anticipated many issues but not to this extent. Yes the compressor is out of the "V" and in front. Yes the MGU-H is in the "V" and slightly lower than the previous PU as is the MGU-K. There were 3 combustion process designs decided upon and with strong advice from outside consultants this current spec was built. The next spec will be "our team's" process/design which obviously I am biased towards. All 3 concepts/designs were "in-house" designs. Just to clarify Honda is not opposed to "outside" help and consultants; it is welcomed. Getting outside help is another matter. A new head, pistons are supposed to be implemented soon.
Yes I am enjoying retirement again. I am mentally at peace. I was asked if I would consider working in the UK for 10 months and I thought about it for 5 seconds and then got mad at myself for wasting 5 seconds.
Food for thought: What if the new PU was expected to run at 1,500 RPM's on average higher than the competition and was actually designed to be more efficient at the higher RPM's? What if??? However certain vibration issues occurred at the higher RPM's??? Just speculation.........of course. Think about the extremely high CR and its relationship to RPM's. Also would you rather have your ICE powering your turbine/MGU-H at 10,500 or 12,250 RPM's if the consumption rate was the same? Just thinking while typing.
Again thanks for all your inquiries. I am fine and enjoying life. The season isn't over and I'm still optimistic for a big turn around Silverstone/SPA.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 01:20
by Craigy
Cheers Wazari. Even if you don't come here to work, I hope you get to come and visit, I'm sure you would be very much welcomed.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 01:33
by Singabule
Wazari wrote: ↑05 May 2017, 01:03
Hi all! Since I have received some inquiries and have ignored almost all of you (sorry) I am taking the lazy route and will try and answer most of your questions in one post. I have not stayed current with this thread so if I'm repeating some things or posting something no longer relevant, I apologize in advance.
Yes I am disappointed and anticipated many issues but not to this extent. Yes the compressor is out of the "V" and in front. Yes the MGU-H is in the "V" and slightly lower than the previous PU as is the MGU-K. There were 3 combustion process designs decided upon and with strong advice from outside consultants this current spec was built. The next spec will be "our team's" process/design which obviously I am biased towards. All 3 concepts/designs were "in-house" designs. Just to clarify Honda is not opposed to "outside" help and consultants; it is welcomed. Getting outside help is another matter. A new head, pistons are supposed to be implemented soon.
Yes I am enjoying retirement again. I am mentally at peace. I was asked if I would consider working in the UK for 10 months and I thought about it for 5 seconds and then got mad at myself for wasting 5 seconds.
Food for thought: What if the new PU was expected to run at 1,500 RPM's on average higher than the competition and was actually designed to be more efficient at the higher RPM's? What if??? However certain vibration issues occurred at the higher RPM's??? Just speculation.........of course. Think about the extremely high CR and its relationship to RPM's. Also would you rather have your ICE powering your turbine/MGU-H at 10,500 or 12,250 RPM's if the consumption rate was the same? Just thinking while typing.
Again thanks for all your inquiries. I am fine and enjoying life. The season isn't over and I'm still optimistic for a big turn around Silverstone/SPA.
Thank you Wazari to visit this forum one more time, i hope you not retire from this forum as well..
. Compression is limited to 1:18, and honda's higher rpm should waste more energy through parasitic loss and Compression loss. I cant imagine how to archive better efficiency at higher rpm unless boost is limited by regulation too. At extremely high rpm, easier to minimize detonation, so at lower rpm honda engine is always at big risk of detonation, and lower boost is expected to mitigate such risk. However, this also lead to peaky nature of power delivery and bad to drivability so MCL slide everywhere. The Deployment from K is not perfect too, because of unmatured software because of Last minute engine Development. Pretty big task from honda to improve drivability imo than outright power.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 02:42
by godlameroso
Out of left field thought.
1-5-4-2-6-3 with a 120 degree crank = 90 - 150 alternating cylinder timing, why would this not work?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 04:45
by PlatinumZealot
Anony Mous Engineerd wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 20:19
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑03 May 2017, 20:10
Is it a proven fact that they are using "alternative firing orders"? Or is that just some alternative facts that have been thrown about around here?
rumors, nothing but rumors based on slightly odd engine noises compared to some other cars.......
Are you new here?
The honda engine changes firing orders on the fly. Might have to trawl back thru the thread but extensive analysis has been done.
Bit bold to just jump in and say such things.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 05:04
by gruntguru
Erm well, it can't actually change "firing order" on the fly. What all the engines can do is skip cylinders on the fly which results in the "fired" cycles occurring in a different order.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 06:43
by trinidefender
Singabule wrote: ↑05 May 2017, 01:33
Wazari wrote: ↑05 May 2017, 01:03
Hi all! Since I have received some inquiries and have ignored almost all of you (sorry) I am taking the lazy route and will try and answer most of your questions in one post. I have not stayed current with this thread so if I'm repeating some things or posting something no longer relevant, I apologize in advance.
Yes I am disappointed and anticipated many issues but not to this extent. Yes the compressor is out of the "V" and in front. Yes the MGU-H is in the "V" and slightly lower than the previous PU as is the MGU-K. There were 3 combustion process designs decided upon and with strong advice from outside consultants this current spec was built. The next spec will be "our team's" process/design which obviously I am biased towards. All 3 concepts/designs were "in-house" designs. Just to clarify Honda is not opposed to "outside" help and consultants; it is welcomed. Getting outside help is another matter. A new head, pistons are supposed to be implemented soon.
Yes I am enjoying retirement again. I am mentally at peace. I was asked if I would consider working in the UK for 10 months and I thought about it for 5 seconds and then got mad at myself for wasting 5 seconds.
Food for thought: What if the new PU was expected to run at 1,500 RPM's on average higher than the competition and was actually designed to be more efficient at the higher RPM's? What if??? However certain vibration issues occurred at the higher RPM's??? Just speculation.........of course. Think about the extremely high CR and its relationship to RPM's. Also would you rather have your ICE powering your turbine/MGU-H at 10,500 or 12,250 RPM's if the consumption rate was the same? Just thinking while typing.
Again thanks for all your inquiries. I am fine and enjoying life. The season isn't over and I'm still optimistic for a big turn around Silverstone/SPA.
Thank you Wazari to visit this forum one more time, i hope you not retire from this forum as well..
. Compression is limited to 1:18, and honda's higher rpm should waste more energy through parasitic loss and Compression loss. I cant imagine how to archive better efficiency at higher rpm unless boost is limited by regulation too. At extremely high rpm, easier to minimize detonation, so at lower rpm honda engine is always at big risk of detonation, and lower boost is expected to mitigate such risk. However, this also lead to peaky nature of power delivery and bad to drivability so MCL slide everywhere. The Deployment from K is not perfect too, because of unmatured software because of Last minute engine Development. Pretty big task from honda to improve drivability imo than outright power.
There are a few things. Camshaft timing is one, especially if a pre-chamber is used then I suspect that camshaft timing may be critical to get proper filling of the prechamber.
Secondly there is piston ring tension. Higher tension rings mean lower blow by with the sacrifice being higher friction levels (this of course being a very general statement). By selecting slightly lower ring tension values then there will be less mechanical friction and power loss at higher rpm with the sacrifice being a little more cylinder pressure loss at lower rpms. Again these are very general statements.
Just food for thought, I can imagine that others can add other factors.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 10:32
by bigblue
Silverstone / Spa seems a long way off (and further off than other rumours have suggested), and re-doing the combustion design seems a big change
Oh well, we can only hope smaller improvements start filtering through sooner. Even the most Honda-centric fan recognises that Honda needs to start to deliver
something to get up into the midfield very soon - something amazing is always slated to come "later". The current version is a good lesson on interactions between cylinders in these types of PU I guess - educated gamble did not pay off due to these unforseen problems. Must be crazy over in Sakura though, pretty tough days.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 10:56
by Tommy Cookers
it's interesting to me that Wazari asks here the question that I asked 5 years ago - why not design around systematically higher rpm ?
eg I suggested that 13000-14800 rpm had some advantages over 10500-12100
mainly 'boost' pressure would be lower ie the supercharging power reduced in greater proportion (eg 23000 would be NA)
the recoverable energy is at least the same at this lower boost
and much less ES energy is used in 'spooling up'
ok at that time I was assuming a mildly lean AFR not very lean
clearly if the very lean TJI or similar suffers at these higher rpm then higher rpm is not on
RETRO EDIT - after re-thinking I still say the boost/compressor work is reduced if rpm is raised - TO SELF - see my post P562
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 05 May 2017, 10:59
by Craigy
bigblue wrote: ↑05 May 2017, 10:32
Silverstone / Spa seems a long way off...
70 days. In the scheme of bringing a PU together, that's a blink of an eye.