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Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 21 Nov 2019, 12:38
by JJR
UlleGulle wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 11:56
LVDH wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 09:58
JJR wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 09:46
Currently I ´m trying to reproduce F1 car from early 90 ´s and see how it compare to our cars. I will try post results next week.
That is awesome. My preference for our F1 rules would be these old 90s cars. However Richard convinced me that it would actually not be possible. The cars at the time did not look the way they looked because of rules but more because of manufacturing constraints, so replicating that would require very artificial rules. So if your create such a car you would make me super happy.
It would be interesting, as a theoretical exercise though, to see what a modern car built to those regulations would look like. Would it be wings everywhere, or a cleaner car? Would they run it super low, or high? Would rake be introduced?
Actually it will be close to 90 ´s . I will use airfoils for front and rear wing as they were in those days. Basic car will be Ferrari F93A with 3,5L V12 so big engine with cooler simulation.
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 21 Nov 2019, 14:48
by machin
maunde wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 11:54
Thanks for (continuously) replying
If next year were to be GP style, would it be appropriate to assume that an identical car would get an identical time on the same track (2020 vs 2019)? Unless of course the track had a 'modified' layout
Yes, thanks Matteo for covering those questions which you answered well!
Depending on the ruleset we use next year (since this hasn't been finalised yet) I will modify the "base" car's mechanical settings in Virtual Stopwatch... that will probably mean that even if your car had the same aero coefficients then you will get a slightly different lap time. I strongly expect that the actual tracks will change next year anyway... maybe 1 or 2 will be re-used, but almost certainly with a different mechanical car set-up...
Normally I have tried to set the car/track models at the beginning of the season, but I struggled to do that this time.. certainly that's my aim next year.
Going back a couple of questions: Matteo was right that we only test at one air speed and calculate one COP... we then assume that the COP and aero
coefficients are the same at all road speeds (note: that means the actual downforce and drag Virtual Stopwatch uses at each point on the track is proportional to speed squared). It is worth pointing out that when we started this competition many years ago (called KVRC back then) we actualy tested the cars at two speeds, and at two yaw angles, we then interpolated between those points to derive an aero-map. However, what we found was that the best car at 100mph with zero yaw, was also the best car at 180mph with some yaw angle; so the additional 3 CFD runs per car did not affect the result -they were unnecessary for our purposes, so now we only do one CFD run per car.
Sounds like you'll be involved next year?
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 21 Nov 2019, 15:13
by jjn9128
JJR wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 12:38
UlleGulle wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 11:56
LVDH wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 09:58
That is awesome. My preference for our F1 rules would be these old 90s cars. However Richard convinced me that it would actually not be possible. The cars at the time did not look the way they looked because of rules but more because of manufacturing constraints, so replicating that would require very artificial rules. So if your create such a car you would make me super happy.
It would be interesting, as a theoretical exercise though, to see what a modern car built to those regulations would look like. Would it be wings everywhere, or a cleaner car? Would they run it super low, or high? Would rake be introduced?
Actually it will be close to 90 ´s . I will use airfoils for front and rear wing as they were in those days. Basic car will be Ferrari F93A with 3,5L V12 so big engine with cooler simulation.
A very common front wing mainplane profile at that time was the modified GA(W)-01/LS(01)-0417
https://m-selig.ae.illinois.edu/ads/coord/ls417mod.dat
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 21 Nov 2019, 18:37
by LVDH
machin wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 14:48
maunde wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 11:54
Thanks for (continuously) replying
If next year were to be GP style, would it be appropriate to assume that an identical car would get an identical time on the same track (2020 vs 2019)? Unless of course the track had a 'modified' layout
Yes, thanks Matteo for covering those questions which you answered well!
Depending on the ruleset we use next year (since this hasn't been finalised yet) I will modify the "base" car's mechanical settings in Virtual Stopwatch... that will probably mean that even if your car had the same aero coefficients then you will get a slightly different lap time. I strongly expect that the actual tracks will change next year anyway... maybe 1 or 2 will be re-used, but almost certainly with a different mechanical car set-up...
Normally I have tried to set the car/track models at the beginning of the season, but I struggled to do that this time.. certainly that's my aim next year.
Going back a couple of questions: Matteo was right that we only test at one air speed and calculate one COP... we then assume that the COP and aero
coefficients are the same at all road speeds (note: that means the actual downforce and drag Virtual Stopwatch uses at each point on the track is proportional to speed squared). It is worth pointing out that when we started this competition many years ago (called KVRC back then) we actualy tested the cars at two speeds, and at two yaw angles, we then interpolated between those points to derive an aero-map. However, what we found was that the best car at 100mph with zero yaw, was also the best car at 180mph with some yaw angle; so the additional 3 CFD runs per car did not affect the result -they were unnecessary for our purposes, so now we only do one CFD run per car.
Sounds like you'll be involved next year?
The calendar itself is announced well before the season starts. While sometimes the actual date changed, the tracks never did. When developing for a track like Monaco, you simply have to go for max. downforce, while in Monza you will have to minimize drag and on other tracks find a good balance between the two. This things are clear, even when the VSW is not fully available to you.
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 21 Nov 2019, 20:30
by maunde
machin wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 14:48
maunde wrote: ↑21 Nov 2019, 11:54
Thanks for (continuously) replying
If next year were to be GP style, would it be appropriate to assume that an identical car would get an identical time on the same track (2020 vs 2019)? Unless of course the track had a 'modified' layout
Yes, thanks Matteo for covering those questions which you answered well!
Depending on the ruleset we use next year (since this hasn't been finalised yet) I will modify the "base" car's mechanical settings in Virtual Stopwatch... that will probably mean that even if your car had the same aero coefficients then you will get a slightly different lap time. I strongly expect that the actual tracks will change next year anyway... maybe 1 or 2 will be re-used, but almost certainly with a different mechanical car set-up...
Normally I have tried to set the car/track models at the beginning of the season, but I struggled to do that this time.. certainly that's my aim next year.
Going back a couple of questions: Matteo was right that we only test at one air speed and calculate one COP... we then assume that the COP and aero
coefficients are the same at all road speeds (note: that means the actual downforce and drag Virtual Stopwatch uses at each point on the track is proportional to speed squared). It is worth pointing out that when we started this competition many years ago (called KVRC back then) we actualy tested the cars at two speeds, and at two yaw angles, we then interpolated between those points to derive an aero-map. However, what we found was that the best car at 100mph with zero yaw, was also the best car at 180mph with some yaw angle; so the additional 3 CFD runs per car did not affect the result -they were unnecessary for our purposes, so now we only do one CFD run per car.
Sounds like you'll be involved next year?
Thank you for clarifying, I certainly hope to be competing
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 02:03
by etsmc
Wow thanks for sharing your processes and other for sharing their details too.
I hope i can use some of this to improve my car, i have a feeling that a lot is in the floor like others.
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 14:01
by variante
I tried to copy the color scale from Koldskaal for a direct comparison. It ended up not being exactly the same, but it gives an idea... I used the car from a "
fast" simulation (i.e. lower downforce than official) and 1° rake.
And also:
and its infernal version:
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 15:02
by Koldskaal
Very interesting. From what I can see we have pretty much come to the same solution, of extending the tea-tray portion of the floor template. It looks like you also get a bit of downforce from the vortex this creates. Where it seems like CAEdevice has gone a different route.
For reference the picture I shared was from a "MVRC" (not fast) simulation.
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 15:29
by CAEdevice
Hi Variante, wich is the color set for the first image? Is it "near wall speed" representation? Is ti a Paraview pre-set?
I would like to share a similar image for a comparison.
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 15:43
by variante
CAEdevice wrote: ↑22 Nov 2019, 15:29
Hi Variante, wich is the color set for the first image? Is it "near wall speed" representation? Is ti a Paraview pre-set?
A custom one
Or we could just use standard scales...
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 16:01
by CAEdevice
I am too lazy, so this is my car with the default preset:
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 16:15
by Koldskaal
CAEdevice wrote: ↑22 Nov 2019, 15:29
Hi Variante, wich is the color set for the first image? Is it "near wall speed" representation? Is ti a Paraview pre-set?
I would like to share a similar image for a comparison.
The one I used is called Rainbow Uniform in paraview 5.7.0
edit: i didnt set out to make it overly complicated to make comparisons to mine, but it seems i might have done so anyway
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 17:50
by jjn9128
What are the rules next year? Carrying on the same before adopting 2021 F1 the year after?
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 18:07
by wb92
Here comes mine:
When normally (with LM MVRC) rules were revealed?
Re: [MVRC] Mantium Virtual Racecar Challenge 2019 (Grand Prix Cars)
Posted: 22 Nov 2019, 20:24
by variante
Ok, so:
Koldskaal wrote: ↑22 Nov 2019, 16:15
The one I used is called Rainbow Uniform in paraview 5.7.0
Ahhh...i'm using 5.4.1
jjn9128 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2019, 17:50
What are the rules next year? Carrying on the same before adopting 2021 F1 the year after?
What do you think of 2021 rules applied to MVRC?
We talked a little about rules a few weeks ago. I said that i would probably adopt 2021 rules right away, so we could produce 2021 cars before anyone else and draw some attention to this challenge.
But it's not granted that such rules are simple enough or interesting enough or who knows what...