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So what hit me this Weekend is why does Honda need the whole FP2 to set up a new Engine while Ferrari just slap in a new Engine (same Spec) and merc even a different Spec, drive out of the Pits and Hammer away?

Thunders wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:24

So what hit me this Weekend is why does Honda need the whole FP2 to set up a new Engine while Ferrari just slap in a new Engine (same Spec) and merc even a different Spec, drive out of the Pits and Hammer away?

IMO, consistent with them learning in public and the pressure they are under.

Perhaps one or both of;
1) Time constraints - less time to test at the factory
2) Limited ability to test at the factory - no / insufficient chassis dyno

Thunders wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:24

So what hit me this Weekend is why does Honda need the whole FP2 to set up a new Engine while Ferrari just slap in a new Engine (same Spec) and merc even a different Spec, drive out of the Pits and Hammer away?

Or its a significantly updated engine , that is quite different from predecessors and old methodology(ways/data) do not fit properly.

How did they run it on the Dyno then?

It's not like the other Engine Makers didn't ever introduce Upgrades before. They have their Software ready and Drive. Honda doesn't. That's puzzling.

That's what I noticed as well. Honda is doing calibration after installing a new pu whereas others just put it on the front row...

My guess is that they usually calibrate on the dyno, but because Honda goes through engines quite a lot they have less new spec calibrated engines 'on stock'.

nzjrs wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:46

2) Limited ability to test at the factory - no / insufficient chassis dyno

I posted in this thread ages ago (Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:38 am) showing photos of the McLaren and Honda rigs.

I don't know where the idea that they don't have the facilities has come from - both companies have had full car dyno facilities for years.

Craigy wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 10:14

nzjrs wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:46

2) Limited ability to test at the factory - no / insufficient chassis dyno

I posted in this thread ages ago showing photos of the McLaren and Honda rigs.

I don't know where the idea that they don't have the facilities has come from - both companies have had full car dyno facilities for years.

I was careful to add the qualifier insufficient. Because something stopped them from anticipating the combustion instability / vibration / resonance issues when running the car on track.

I'm trying to apply some systems thinking to this - I don't believe Honda to be unqualified or lacking in ideas, so we have a management or measurement problem IMO.

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:21

I think its a promising sign that Alonso was able to ( even if under 'consolation' circumstances) put up some good lap times,
& sans major failure by the Honda engine unit..

Alonso's last laps after pitting for final time.
Lap Time Evolution
53 1'27.116 -20.235
54 1'24.938 -2.178
55 1'24.640 -0.298
56 1'24.650 0.01
57 1'24.723 0.073
58 1'25.394 0.671
59 1'26.637 1.243
60 1'25.365 -1.272
61 1'28.430 3.065
62 1'24.590 -3.84
63 1'31.592 7.002
64 1'23.894 -7.698


The first few after the stops were ok, but after that they varied wildly.

He was definitely cooling the tyres and charging the battery for qualifying style laps.

I don't doubt it was 'a stunt' Wayne, but he didn't 'kill it' either, so that's a positive, IMO..

wuzak wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 11:26

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:21

I think its a promising sign that Alonso was able to ( even if under 'consolation' circumstances) put up some good lap times,
& sans major failure by the Honda engine unit..

Alonso's last laps after pitting for final time.
Lap Time Evolution
53 1'27.116 -20.235
54 1'24.938 -2.178
55 1'24.640 -0.298
56 1'24.650 0.01
57 1'24.723 0.073
58 1'25.394 0.671
59 1'26.637 1.243
60 1'25.365 -1.272
61 1'28.430 3.065
62 1'24.590 -3.84
63 1'31.592 7.002
64 1'23.894 -7.698


The first few after the stops were ok, but after that they varied wildly.

He was definitely cooling the tyres and charging the battery for qualifying style laps.

Look at the laps between 39 and 50 - there is the clear evidence of Honda progress.

j.yank wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 12:27

wuzak wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 11:26

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 08:21

I think its a promising sign that Alonso was able to ( even if under 'consolation' circumstances) put up some good lap times,
& sans major failure by the Honda engine unit..

Alonso's last laps after pitting for final time.
Lap Time Evolution
53 1'27.116 -20.235
54 1'24.938 -2.178
55 1'24.640 -0.298
56 1'24.650 0.01
57 1'24.723 0.073
58 1'25.394 0.671
59 1'26.637 1.243
60 1'25.365 -1.272
61 1'28.430 3.065
62 1'24.590 -3.84
63 1'31.592 7.002
64 1'23.894 -7.698


The first few after the stops were ok, but after that they varied wildly.

He was definitely cooling the tyres and charging the battery for qualifying style laps.

Look at the laps between 39 and 50 - there is the clear evidence of Honda progress.

Alonso
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'27.034 -0.699
40 1'26.993 -0.041
41 1'27.010 0.017
42 1'26.857 -0.153
43 1'27.243 0.386
44 1'26.894 -0.349
45 1'26.948 0.054
46 1'26.547 -0.401
47 1'27.025 0.478
48 1'26.687 -0.338
49 1'26.895 0.208
50 1'26.768 -0.127

Wehrlein
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'28.516 0.819
40 1'30.965 2.449
41 1'27.947 -3.018
42 1'27.046 -0.901
43 1'27.273 0.227
44 1'27.366 0.093
45 1'26.946 -0.42
46 1'27.205 0.259
47 1'27.038 -0.167
48 1'26.860 -0.178
49 1'26.993 0.133
50 1'26.785 -0.208

Ericsson
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'27.381 -0.316
40 1'27.649 0.268
41 1'27.731 0.082
42 1'27.464 -0.267
43 1'27.377 -0.087
44 1'27.120 -0.257
45 1'27.457 0.337
46 1'27.269 -0.188
47 1'27.436 0.167
48 1'26.847 -0.589
49 1'27.134 0.287
50 1'26.622 -0.512

Kvyat
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'26.448 -0.113
40 1'26.716 0.268
41 1'28.044 1.328
42 1'27.942 -0.102
43 1'26.818 -1.124
44 1'27.242 0.424
45 1'27.101 -0.141
46 1'27.484 0.383
47 1'27.259 -0.225
48 1'27.153 -0.106
49 1'27.071 -0.082
50 1'27.200 0.129


So, Alonso gained 8s on Wehrlein (0.67s/lap), 4.6s on Ericsson (0.38s/lap) and 3.6s on Kvyat (0.3s/lap).

I fail to see what improvement they had, apart from the engine not blowing up.

Remember that Alonso is, possibly, the best driver on the grid and the others are not. The others are driving cars with far lower budgets, and the Saubers have year old engines. And they were all ahead of Alonso at the time and they all finished ahead of him.

And just for comparison,

Vettel
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'25.081 -18.194
40 1'25.702 0.621
41 1'24.746 -0.956
42 1'24.990 0.244
43 1'23.674 -1.316
44 1'25.937 2.263
45 1'24.588 -1.349
46 1'24.640 0.052
47 1'24.741 0.101
48 1'24.630 -0.111
49 1'24.588 -0.042
50 1'24.547 -0.041

Vettel gained 25s in those laps (2.1s/lap) including lap 44, on which he lost 2s being passed by Hamilton.

I used Vettel as he had the same tyre compound on at that time as Alonso did.

This shows improvement I think. İf you dont expect big improvement.

Lauda said "we are not going to help Honda, we have to work to beat ferrari"

This is a logical statement. They are not leading wcc and they are not comfortable to help Honda

wuzak wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 14:49

And just for comparison,

Vettel
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'25.081 -18.194
40 1'25.702 0.621
41 1'24.746 -0.956
42 1'24.990 0.244
43 1'23.674 -1.316
44 1'25.937 2.263
45 1'24.588 -1.349
46 1'24.640 0.052
47 1'24.741 0.101
48 1'24.630 -0.111
49 1'24.588 -0.042
50 1'24.547 -0.041

Vettel gained 25s in those laps (2.1s/lap) including lap 44, on which he lost 2s being passed by Hamilton.

I used Vettel as he had the same tyre compound on at that time as Alonso did.

Between 39 and 50 th laps (when all of them were on fresh mediums and Alonso was not behind another driver) Alonso trails Vettel on average by 2.08 sec per lap, Perez by 0.28 sec but outperforms Hulkenberg by 0.38, Saintz by 0.7, and Grosjean by 0.95 sec per lap. When you point out another race when Alonso match the pace of these drivers in similar way, I will accept that everything is down only to Alonso skills. At this stage you cannot compare him to Vettel. First they should level the best of the middle pack, and I think that they are very close - in this race only Force India had better pace.

j.yank wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 15:21

wuzak wrote: ↑

15 May 2017, 14:49

And just for comparison,

Vettel
Lap Time Evolution
39 1'25.081 -18.194
40 1'25.702 0.621
41 1'24.746 -0.956
42 1'24.990 0.244
43 1'23.674 -1.316
44 1'25.937 2.263
45 1'24.588 -1.349
46 1'24.640 0.052
47 1'24.741 0.101
48 1'24.630 -0.111
49 1'24.588 -0.042
50 1'24.547 -0.041

Vettel gained 25s in those laps (2.1s/lap) including lap 44, on which he lost 2s being passed by Hamilton.

I used Vettel as he had the same tyre compound on at that time as Alonso did.

Between 39 and 50 th laps (when all of them were on fresh mediums and Alonso was not behind another driver) Alonso trails Vettel on average by 2.08 sec per lap, Perez by 0.28 sec but outperforms Hulkenberg by 0.38, Saintz by 0.7, and Grosjean by 0.95 sec per lap. When you point out another race when Alonso match the pace of these drivers in similar way, I will accept that everything is down only to Alonso skills. At this stage you cannot compare him to Vettel. First they should level the best of the middle pack, and I think that they are very close - in this race only Force India had better pace.

Yet even both STRs and both Saubers were ahead of Alonso.