F1technical.net

roon wrote: I wonder if we'll see total 'inwash' front wings in '17.

We wont. The front wing's position relative to the front wheel doesn't change much. To then make the wing inwash, you would give up a huge amount of wing area, draw air towards the front wheel and pull this dirty air inwards, where you really want it to move away from the floor.

The bigger barge boards would place less emphasis on the outwash from the front wing. So perhaps we would see a return to pushing air upwards instead of sideways

wesley123 wrote:

roon wrote: I wonder if we'll see total 'inwash' front wings in '17.

We wont. The front wing's position relative to the front wheel doesn't change much. To then make the wing inwash, you would give up a huge amount of wing area, draw air towards the front wheel and pull this dirty air inwards, where you really want it to move away from the floor.

The bigger barge boards would place less emphasis on the outwash from the front wing. So perhaps we would see a return to pushing air upwards instead of sideways

Not that it necessarily makes much odds, but motorsport speculate that we may well see inwash:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... 17-855744/

With just this information you'd expect the outwash style wings to be retained, but it's the reintroduction of the larger bargeboards [4] behind them that is the game changer. As we've already alluded to, their role in pushing the front tyres wake away from the floor will change how designers approach the design of their front wing.



We've already seen and discussed how teams are potentially going to favour an inwash design philosophy, albeit with some outwash tendencies to displace and harness the airflow spilt by the outer section of the tyre, McLaren's development wing (above) points at this very direction.

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

astracrazy wrote:http://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/ ... arison.jpg

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

2017 wings will be exactly 900mm on each side...the same as 2009 cars! But 2017 cars will be wider (2000mm instead of 1800mm)! That means the wings will end somewhere aroung the center of the wheel and it will be harder to make outwash work! Also it seems that because of the bigger bargeboards in 2017, inwash is a better solution!

AMG.Tzan wrote:

astracrazy wrote:http://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/ ... arison.jpg

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

2017 wings will be exactly 900mm on each side...the same as 2009 cars! But 2017 cars will be wider (2000mm instead of 1800mm)! That means the wings will end somewhere aroung the center of the wheel and it will be harder to make outwash work! Also it seems that because of the bigger bargeboards in 2017, inwash is a better solution!

Sorry my mistake

I still think inwash would be even harder though?

AMG.Tzan wrote:

astracrazy wrote:http://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/ ... arison.jpg

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

2017 wings will be exactly 900mm on each side...the same as 2009 cars! But 2017 cars will be wider (2000mm instead of 1800mm)! That means the wings will end somewhere aroung the center of the wheel and it will be harder to make outwash work! Also it seems that because of the bigger bargeboards in 2017, inwash is a better solution!

The endplates will still be closer to the outside of the tire. I HIGHLY DOUBT we'll see ANY teams with inwash wings.

Pierce89 wrote:

AMG.Tzan wrote:

astracrazy wrote:http://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/ ... arison.jpg

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

2017 wings will be exactly 900mm on each side...the same as 2009 cars! But 2017 cars will be wider (2000mm instead of 1800mm)! That means the wings will end somewhere aroung the center of the wheel and it will be harder to make outwash work! Also it seems that because of the bigger bargeboards in 2017, inwash is a better solution!

The endplates will still be closer to the outside of the tire. I HIGHLY DOUBT we'll see ANY teams with inwash wings.

I also think that it will be easier to go with outwash! But i base my opinion on Piola's analysis of Mclaren's experimental front wing at the end of the season...and he was saying that teams may opt for inwash wings!

AMG.Tzan wrote:

astracrazy wrote:http://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/mgl/ ... arison.jpg

This image here (comparing a 2008 inwash wing) shows exactly why they won't be inwash (I know thats the f60 but 2017 wings are even wider).

2017 wings will be exactly 900mm on each side...the same as 2009 cars! But 2017 cars will be wider (2000mm instead of 1800mm)! That means the wings will end somewhere aroung the center of the wheel and it will be harder to make outwash work! Also it seems that because of the bigger bargeboards in 2017, inwash is a better solution!

isn't there athread about 2009 FW wash here....

I doubt we'll see big style in-wash front wings too...

2008 inwash wings still had the spoon centres mitigating the lost wing span. The position of the endplate isn't changing that much in relation to the centre of the tyre, from memory when I did some rough calculations it's only about 15mm different

With the wider front tyres is it at all conceivable for a front wing to direct the air around either side? And an inwash and an outwash design?

I can kind of imagine it in my head but even if it would be a poop idea I'd love it if someone could draw it so see what it'd look like on a car....

Could there be any benefit of what I'm now going to refer to as 'the okey cokie front wing'?

They sort of do this already, depending on how we define inwash & outwash. So I don't think it would look much different. The existing wings form an inboard 'Y250' vortex & an outboard 'outwash' vortex.

I would define an inwash wing as direct all or most of its flow inside the front wheels, a design we haven't seen but which could be done within the current ruleset. So-called outwash wings don't fully direct their flow outboard of the front wheels, given the current ruleset.

KeiKo403 wrote:With the wider front tyres is it at all conceivable for a front wing to direct the air around either side? And an inwash and an outwash design?

I can kind of imagine it in my head but even if it would be a poop idea I'd love it if someone could draw it so see what it'd look like on a car....

Could there be any benefit of what I'm now going to refer to as 'the okey cokie front wing'?

Check out this article by Motorsport.com:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/tech- ... 17-855744/

McLaren's Tim Goss:

Goss also believes the larger bargeboards will be a key visual indicator in the change of regulations and is confident all cars will look more aggressive and attractive, as set out by the requirements of the 2017 regulations revamp.

“The rear wing is also wider and lower - which helps make the whole car look lower and wider,” he said. “And there are some visual styling cues that have been introduced: the rear is swept back in side-view, and the sidepod intakes are angled in plan-view. It's definitely a 'meaner' look.

“And there's a detail in the rear-wing endplate regulations; they step in - and that curviness is another styling feature that adds to the general 'aura' around the new shape.”

Not a lot of the renders of 2017 cars we've seen so far show the "curviness".

How will teams interpret this curviness ?? How strict are the rules in this regard ??

Any ideas Aero Guys ??

Someone made a short wheel base car

mclaren111 wrote:McLaren's Tim Goss:

Goss also believes the larger bargeboards will be a key visual indicator in the change of regulations and is confident all cars will look more aggressive and attractive, as set out by the requirements of the 2017 regulations revamp.

“The rear wing is also wider and lower - which helps make the whole car look lower and wider,” he said. “And there are some visual styling cues that have been introduced: the rear is swept back in side-view, and the sidepod intakes are angled in plan-view. It's definitely a 'meaner' look.

“And there's a detail in the rear-wing endplate regulations; they step in - and that curviness is another styling feature that adds to the general 'aura' around the new shape.”

Not a lot of the renders of 2017 cars we've seen so far show the "curviness".

How will teams interpret this curviness ?? How strict are the rules in this regard ??

Any ideas Aero Guys ??

Surprised you didn't quote this part

"A lot of the flow structures and physics on the car are fundamentally the same, how the flow is established at the front of the car and then travels back down the car, starts off in a fairly similar way to last year.

“Now what you’ll find is that, in the detail, things start to behave differently, which prompts you to change direction. The 2017 cars will look pretty similar to the layman, but the aero guys have been battling to correct flow-structures at different ride heights for months and months now. We’ve had to rethink lots of different areas on the car, because they’re behaving differently to how they did before.”

Also we'll see some P1 inspired barge boards, nice wavy multi element designs.