Page 593 of 1332
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 01:58
by gruntguru
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 03:01
by godlameroso
gruntguru wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 01:58
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection occurs in a 90* window. This is a very-high-flow injector.
90 - 150 Or more with cylinder deactivation/skipping.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 05:56
by gruntguru
Pretty sure "full load" operation would be on 6 cylinders and the load of a "fired" cylinder would be no greater during skipping.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 06:58
by PlatinumZealot
It just hit me that Honda and Renault have the same injector and "jet torch." the difference is just a different engine and different shape combustion chamber?
Mario illien according to Christian Horner is helping Honda design their
combustion (chamber?) . We know from reports that Renault didn't take the illien chamber design so peddling it to Honda is the next logical step for Illein to get some sort of comeuppance for his efforts.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 07:38
by Abarth
gruntguru wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 01:58
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.
Doesn't this also give an indication that forming a homogeneous lean mixture is extremely difficult?
Short time to homogenize and very high fuel concentration area when injecting such an amount of fuel, even if it is not the whole amount, as a part might go "unmixed" into the prechamber to form a richer mixture there. But it would be the smaller part anyway?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 07:52
by makecry
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 06:58
It just hit me that Honda and Renault have the same injector and "jet torch." the difference is just a different engine and different shape combustion chamber?
Mario illien according to Christian Horner is helping Honda design their
combustion (chamber?) . We know from reports that Renault didn't take the illien chamber design so peddling it to Honda is the next logical step for Illein to get some sort of comeuppance for his efforts.
That does sound a bit concerning when you look at it that way.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 08:36
by gruntguru
Abarth wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 07:38
gruntguru wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 01:58
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.
Doesn't this also give an indication that forming a homogeneous lean mixture is extremely difficult?
Short time to homogenize and very high fuel concentration area when injecting such an amount of fuel, even if it is not the whole amount, as a part might go "unmixed" into the prechamber to form a richer mixture there. But it would be the smaller part anyway?
The actual duration may be more than 90 degrees - perhaps 180 - which would halve the required injector flow rate. Regardless, at 500 bar the droplet velocity is very high so the droplet cloud will extend significantly across the chamber - even with 90 degrees (1.3 ms @ 11,000 rpm) duration.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 08:55
by J.A.W.
Example of a design method to 'twin inject' - DI, through a single orifice..
http://www.google.com/patents/US6298822
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 10:20
by FW17
Honda should stop using the excuse that they started many years later than the competition
Toyota started 2years after Porsche and started the year ahead
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 11:15
by Craigy
makecry wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 07:52
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 06:58
It just hit me that Honda and Renault have the same injector and "jet torch." the difference is just a different engine and different shape combustion chamber?
Mario illien according to Christian Horner is helping Honda design their
combustion (chamber?) . We know from reports that Renault didn't take the illien chamber design so peddling it to Honda is the next logical step for Illein to get some sort of comeuppance for his efforts.
That does sound a bit concerning when you look at it that way.
Honda (HPD, the US part of Honda racing) just beat Ilmor (badged as a Chevy) in the Indy500 - so if you're worried about Mario Illien's development process having been rejected by Renault, imagine how Honda F1 (HRD JP) must feel about it. "We're getting help from this company we just beat?".
On the other hand, the Ilmor-badged chevy engined cars didn't have 8 failures in the month of May so while they are perhaps slower, they at least run reliably.
This is all a bit tongue-in-cheek (joking). It's just a funny circumstance the people involved have found themselves in.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 12:39
by makecry
Craigy wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 11:15
makecry wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 07:52
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 06:58
It just hit me that Honda and Renault have the same injector and "jet torch." the difference is just a different engine and different shape combustion chamber?
Mario illien according to Christian Horner is helping Honda design their
combustion (chamber?) . We know from reports that Renault didn't take the illien chamber design so peddling it to Honda is the next logical step for Illein to get some sort of comeuppance for his efforts.
That does sound a bit concerning when you look at it that way.
Honda (HPD, the US part of Honda racing) just beat Ilmor (badged as a Chevy) in the Indy500 - so if you're worried about Mario Illien's development process having been rejected by Renault, imagine how Honda F1 (HRD JP) must feel about it. "We're getting help from this company we just beat?".
On the other hand, the Ilmor-badged chevy engined cars didn't have 8 failures in the month of May so while they are perhaps slower, they at least run reliably.
This is all a bit tongue-in-cheek (joking). It's just a funny circumstance the people involved have found themselves in.
But the thing is, we don't know for sure Illien is working wih HRD. It's something Horner has said and Horner as we know is a --- stirrer supreme.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 13:29
by Tommy Cookers
[quote=gruntguru]
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.[/quote]
does injection continue after the spark ?
is there one injection episode or multiple episodes (per cycle) ?
(starting injection 90 - 180 deg before the spark seems so old-fashioned and exposes the fuel to heat for a critically longer period ??)
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 13:59
by godlameroso
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 13:29
gruntguru wrote:
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.
does injection continue after the spark ?
is there one injection episode or multiple episodes (per cycle) ?
(starting injection 90 - 180 deg before the spark seems so old-fashioned and exposes the fuel to heat for a critically longer period ??)
Isn't fuel heating necessary? Regardless I believe there are multiple injections per cycle. As far as the timing is concerned, I imagine that's one of the more closely guarded secrets.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 15:19
by dren
godlameroso wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 13:59
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 13:29
gruntguru wrote:
A quick calculation indicates a flow rate of 2.2 kg/minute (~3 L/min) for each injector if injection duration is less than 90 crankshaft degrees. This is a very-high-flow injector.
does injection continue after the spark ?
is there one injection episode or multiple episodes (per cycle) ?
(starting injection 90 - 180 deg before the spark seems so old-fashioned and exposes the fuel to heat for a critically longer period ??)
Isn't fuel heating necessary? Regardless I believe there are multiple injections per cycle. As far as the timing is concerned, I imagine that's one of the more closely guarded secrets.
There is fuel heating prior to injection, and then there is the chance of pre-ignition due to early injection because it's exposed to the hot chamber longer. Maybe the fuel type is fine in the condition?
The process is probably simpler than we're thinking, just hard to get to work in a controllable fashion.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 31 May 2017, 15:21
by dren
Craigy wrote: ↑31 May 2017, 11:15
On the other hand, the Ilmor-badged chevy engined cars didn't have 8 failures in the month of May so while they are perhaps slower, they at least run reliably.
Didn't Andretti say Honda asked him if they wanted more reliability or more speed, and he said speed always.