F1technical.net

That article is bassicaly a YES.

Honda has sought extra help from independent engine consultant Ilmor and reportedly sounded out Mercedes too as part of a concerted effort to accelerate progress.

This is a bit weird, the press, even reputable press like autosport keep posting that Honda have talked to Mercedes about getting 'help' (note talked to, not reported as having received any yet). But, I think Hasegawa / Honda have said that they are reluctant to accept direct help (obviously that makes you dependent on a competitor to some extent, looks bad, is philosophically against the 'figure it out internally to strengthen the company's engineering' culture etc). I know there is obviously collaboration with suppliers and external consultants, and European staff are hired when possible, I'm concentrating more on the Mercedes angle. Do I mis-remember Honda's position on this ? The only other thing I've seen written on forums is that perhaps exclusivity on suppliers may have been relaxed a little, a sort of indirect help.

Can anyone sum-up the situation any better than the above, or is that the sum total knowledge and (vague) accuracy of the situation that is known ?

Both Mercedes and Honda have said there is no truth to those Rumours. Mercedes are focusing on beating Ferrari they have no time to be helping anyone.

Latest rumours are that Honda will run a re-badged Merc engine next year ..

harjan wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 14:27

Latest rumours are that Honda will run a re-badged Merc engine next year ..

LOL

Chanman141 wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 11:33

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... for-canada

Main update is aimed at the ICE, but it is very tight to get all the testing, settings and mapping sorted in time for Canada

I don't understand this good. We are waiting this update as big update which bring Honda about 2016 merc level. But here Hasegawa san says "if it is small" like somethings. Can't we see that level. Wasn't the objective of update that level

etusch wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 15:11

Chanman141 wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 11:33

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... for-canada

Main update is aimed at the ICE, but it is very tight to get all the testing, settings and mapping sorted in time for Canada

I don't understand this good. We are waiting this update as big update which bring Honda about 2016 merc level. But here Hasegawa san says "if it is small" like somethings. Can't we see that level. Wasn't the objective of update that level

I noticed he mentioned that too. Quite worrying, unless what he meant was lost in translation.

etusch wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 15:11

Chanman141 wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 11:33

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... for-canada

Main update is aimed at the ICE, but it is very tight to get all the testing, settings and mapping sorted in time for Canada

I don't understand this good. We are waiting this update as big update which bring Honda about 2016 merc level. But here Hasegawa san says "if it is small" like somethings. Can't we see that level. Wasn't the objective of update that level

That's the objective, but if they can't do all of the necessary testing and work on settings then they run the risk of turning up in Canada with an ICE that's not ready for the track. They are in a catch 22 situation - Damned if they bring it (assuming it breaks down etc) and damned if they don't (need more time to test the reliability and work on settings to ensure the drivers have driviability).

bigblue wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 12:32

Can anyone sum-up the situation any better than the above, or is that the sum total knowledge and (vague) accuracy of the situation that is known ?

I subscribe to the magazine "Motorsport" in the UK. In the July 2017 edition, there's a column by Mark Hughes which talks about this, page 32 entitled "F1 Frontline".

I won't reproduce it in full here for copyright reasons, but to sum it up his opinion is that Mercedes are giving unofficial help to Honda, that they have done so before (helping Ferrari in 2014) and that the help for Honda in 2017 is part of an FIA convergence process to get all the PUs within an FIA-defined "0.3s per lap" range.
Apparently this process is making Mercedes' PU customers (Bob Fernley from Force India is quoted) rather unhappy, since Force India are in direct competition with McLaren, and they see this process as handing an advantage that Force India helped create, to their competitors.

None of this is the engine manufacturers saying "yes, we're getting help" or "yes, we're helping". That's unlikely to ever happen, in my opinion.

GhostF1 wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 11:19

Clarification by Hasegawa about the "MGU-H only lasts for two races" statement. He said "that's the trend but their testing shows it capable of far longer". Mentions it's just a modification required and they have another revised version in testing now but they don't want to change it Canada unless a problem occurs.

So something is causing it to wear out prematurely?
I wish they were allowed to be more specific, inquiring minds want to know!
It always seems to be caused by something they can't adequately simulate on the dyno.

Is it a cooling problem that only appears once it's under the bonnet and under race conditions?
Or is it a G-force problem where parts bend or compress under load in the corners?

I've got a feeling it's cooling, and they are forced to reduce the power output of the hybrid system to help prevent catastrophic failure during the race. Would explain at least a portion of the performance deficit.

I dunno I'm speculating

This is why I think they should wait until Baku or Spielberg to introduce the engine, they can make Q3 in Montreal and Austria as is, maybe not Baku. Develop the upgrade so that they can get to Silverstone without a penalty so that their real season can start once and for all. Then the final big update around Malaysia or Singapore to give them the best shot at their home race, I will cry tears of joy if they can turn around their terrible result from last year at Suzuka.

It's a tough call for sure.

Standard procedure is perhaps to put new engine in FP, change it back to old for Quali/Race whilst you analyse the data. Then going forward use old engine for FP and new spec for Quali/Race with improved mappings based on data gathered.

DarkAlman wrote: ↑

02 Jun 2017, 16:01

So something is causing it to wear out prematurely?
I wish they were allowed to be more specific, inquiring minds want to know!
It always seems to be caused by something they can't adequately simulate on the dyno.

Is it a cooling problem that only appears once it's under the bonnet and under race conditions?
Or is it a G-force problem where parts bend or compress under load in the corners?

I've got a feeling it's cooling, and they are forced to reduce the power output of the hybrid system to help prevent catastrophic failure during the race. Would explain at least a portion of the performance deficit.

I dunno I'm speculating

What we know is that they pulled it cause there was some bearing wear. That it wasn't spinning as well as it does normally. That it was sticking slightly at a certain position in the rotation. Also in the past the yhadn't noticed the sticking and it seized before they pulled.

We know the MGU-H has a longer shaft this year with the compressor being further front than it was last year and the turbine being it the same relative space.

We don't know how many bearings, which bearing, spacing etc.

That is quite unexpected and very worrying. if I assume correctly, the bearings are floating bushings. That is the shaft then oil layer then floating bushing ring then oil then outer bearing... So to have damage there is quite a feat.. Probably some sort of oil delievery or cooling problem..?

Ferrari removes their turbochargers after two races on average so far... Do the rules allow servicing of the bearings without penalty? Maybe Honda has finally caught onto this trick and remove the mguh mid cycle to do some checks.

It could actually be yet another symptom of the vibration issue.