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Henne wrote:So correct me if I'm wrong, this Renault (Let's just rebrand it to Tag Heuer) will only be a one year deal?

https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status ... 9931688961

Marko confirmed this TAG engine is just a rebranded Renault engine, so I think this topic can be closed.

The real news is that Renault has Mario Illien on board now so things can turn around if he is successful.

Ok,

So is this redbull engine the exact same unit as the 2016 renault, and will it's development be managed by renault?
I haven't seen a clear answer to that question.

If renault and redbull will be using the same exact power units with the same development then it would only be a matter of pride as to why the engines will have different names. So what will be the difference with 2016?

Joseki wrote:Marko confirmed this TAG engine is just a rebranded Renault engine, so I think this topic can be closed.

NO. The heads are completely different. So are the ERS components.

tuj wrote:

Joseki wrote:Marko confirmed this TAG engine is just a rebranded Renault engine, so I think this topic can be closed.

NO. The heads are completely different. So are the ERS components.

Source?

tuj wrote:

Joseki wrote:Marko confirmed this TAG engine is just a rebranded Renault engine, so I think this topic can be closed.

NO. The heads are completely different. So are the ERS components.

No, they are not.

Red Bull will use exactly the same power unit as Renault, give or take an update during the season.

I distinctly remember Renault, just a short while ago, declaring that they considered Ilien's develoments but decided to go with what their own guys came up with in the end.

This is such a mess.

bhall II wrote:

FoxHound wrote:...it will be for 2017.

I think that's the plan regardless.

grandprix.com, November 27, 2015 wrote:"Next year will be a transition year," Horner confirmed. "We have an agreement on the use of an engine for next year. The announcement will hopefully take place in the coming days.

"Ironically, the path of development will be one that we wanted to have 12 months ago," he added.

For next season, Renault will develop and supply to both its works team and Red Bull the Illien concept it initially rejected. At the same time, Illien will continue to develop the concept separately in order for Red Bull to use it from 2017, by which time it will be a different power unit.

This was the writing on the wall, Ben. I'm guessing we saw it ahead of the curve, but then this is not out of the ordinary for yourself. In my case, I fling enough mud for it to stick....
The surprise is Renault proper are taking Red Bull's initiative with Ilmor as one of their own.
Now that's some shizzle to frame right there...
Viry now have 2 entities working on a singular PU....One Renault funded and one Red Bull funded.

Those that suppose this is a long term venture have yet to fathom the committee involved. Who decides which token goes where?
Or do we waste 10 tokens as Renault did in Brazil, only to backtrack to an Ilmor variant?
32 tokens just became 16....

I really don't think it's a split development. It makes more sense that the resources are pooled to work on one engine. This one engine will simply have different names. Lack of trust played a big role with development this season, they need to make things more open to improve their chances of success. So i would guess that the power unit will be the same for both teams, but redbull having more say in the speed and direction of development.

ringo wrote:I really don't think it's a split development. It makes more sense that the resources are pooled to work on one engine. This one engine will simply have different names. Lack of trust played a big role with development this season, they need to make things more open to improve their chances of success. So i would guess that the power unit will be the same for both teams, but redbull having more say in the speed and direction of development.

And yet therein lies deeper rubs.

Who decides where resources are pooled? You have 3 or 4 parties involved.
Red Bull will want what's good for them, Ilmor will want what's good for their service, Renault will want what's good for their team.
If we look at this as new venture, how long is it gonna take these guys to work out who's good at what?
Ilmor for ICE and Renault for the rest?
That makes a damning case for Red Bull going alone with Ilmor.

And as far as i am aware, Ilmor have limited to none capability in Hybrid systems....Red Bull however have that ability.

What are the indicators?

One day this will make a great case study in a school somewhere on how to procure a supplier you didn't want for a more expensive price than you did before.

FoxHound wrote:

ringo wrote:I really don't think it's a split development. It makes more sense that the resources are pooled to work on one engine. This one engine will simply have different names. Lack of trust played a big role with development this season, they need to make things more open to improve their chances of success. So i would guess that the power unit will be the same for both teams, but redbull having more say in the speed and direction of development.

Who decides where resources are pooled? You have 3 or 4 parties involved.
Red Bull will want what's good for them, Ilmor will want what's good for their service, Renault will want what's good for their team.
If we look at this as new venture, how long is it gonna take these guys to work out who's good at what?
Ilmor for ICE and Renault for the rest?
That makes a damning case for Red Bull going alone with Ilmor.
And as far as i am aware, Ilmor have limited to none capability in Hybrid systems....Red Bull however have that ability.
What are the indicators?

No, you have only one party, engine maker and supplier decides. What makes you think that Red Bull can do anything with the engine that is someone else's property and design? Neither of us knows contract details but their negotiations position wasn't strong at all. Bluffing about leaving quickly looked silly.

Branding division means nothing on technical side, just a name, Tag rumour does not make sense to me but we'll see. The whole deal is surprising from Renault's side with some reasons (in order):
- FOM deal
- marketing
- benefits of having more than one team.
The last part is the only reason I can think of for leaving any freedom, their own team is way behind so if they can benefit from RB's development and ideas (both aero and engine) they allow it. It would be easier to judge it if Renault's decision making was clearer: who'd be responsible for policies like that: Ghosn, Abiteboul or whoever runs Enstone - Vasseur?

I'm interested if Toro Rosso can be quicker than the main team. Much smaller and decision was late but maybe early in the season depending on tokens?

iotar__ wrote: No, you have only one party, engine maker and supplier decides.

No, you have 2 suppliers...Ilmor and Renault, and 2 official benefactors....Renault's official team and Red Bull.
Ilmor have a complete interest in helping Red Bull, and Renault a complete interest in helping themselves.

If an engine supplier is meant to be deeply embedded in the team, you begin to see the working issues.

It is....design by committee.

FoxHound wrote:

iotar__ wrote: No, you have only one party, engine maker and supplier decides.

No, you have 2 suppliers...Ilmor and Renault, and 2 official benefactors....Renault's official team and Red Bull.
Ilmor have a complete interest in helping Red Bull, and Renault a complete interest in helping themselves.

If an engine supplier is meant to be deeply embedded in the team, you begin to see the working issues.

It is....design by committee.

Ilmor is only a consultant to Renault. There is only one supplier, which remains Renault. Whatever Ilmor develops for Renault, Renault will get full IP rights for it.