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Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 07 Jun 2023, 20:03
by saviour stivala
diffuser wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 17:27
saviour stivala wrote: ↑06 Jun 2023, 18:36
diffuser wrote: ↑06 Jun 2023, 17:59
Feeling are a complete 180 to facts.....anyways ...
I doudt anyone does that anymore. Since the move to a single map per track for the race and quali. All they can do is vary when and how much they deploy.
By saying that you 'doubt anyone does that (use free-load-mode) anymore you are telling us that they used to make use of it. What changed by the mandated use of a single map for both qualifying and race was they could not use it (free-load-mode) anymore during a lap then they can during a race, they cannot use it more for qualifying than in the race, as they used to use it more during qualifying as both fuel and battery charge consumed is no problem for a qualifying lap. Apart from the deployment of electrical power, they do use free load mode, all one have to do to know when it's being used is listen to change in engine sound, when that happens, waste-gate is open and exhaust is bypassing the turbine.
Would the waste gate be controlled automatically and tied to boost? In other words if you cut the MGU-H load, the boost starts to climb, and as part of the MAP, the controller would automatically start to open the waste gate to regulate boost? No change in Map required ? Push-to-Pass?
The formula 1 highbrid waste-gate is not used to regulat boost. technically the MGU-H regulats the turbo function and so boosts. Although the F1 highbrid turbo uses a pressure turbine, and a pressure turbine necesitates the use of a waste-gate, unlike the blow-down type of turbine, which does not need the use of a waste-gate, Mr. moderator please remove this post as I could not find a way to do so.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 07 Jun 2023, 20:12
by saviour stivala
diffuser wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 17:27
saviour stivala wrote: ↑06 Jun 2023, 18:36
diffuser wrote: ↑06 Jun 2023, 17:59
Feeling are a complete 180 to facts.....anyways ...
I doudt anyone does that anymore. Since the move to a single map per track for the race and quali. All they can do is vary when and how much they deploy.
By saying that you 'doubt anyone does that (use free-load-mode) anymore you are telling us that they used to make use of it. What changed by the mandated use of a single map for both qualifying and race was they could not use it (free-load-mode) anymore during a lap then they can during a race, they cannot use it more for qualifying than in the race, as they used to use it more during qualifying as both fuel and battery charge consumed is no problem for a qualifying lap. Apart from the deployment of electrical power, they do use free load mode, all one have to do to know when it's being used is listen to change in engine sound, when that happens, waste-gate is open and exhaust is bypassing the turbine.
Would the waste gate be controlled automatically and tied to boost? In other words if you cut the MGU-H load, the boost starts to climb, and as part of the MAP, the controller would automatically start to open the waste gate to regulate boost? No change in Map required ? Push-to-Pass?
The formula 1 highbrid waste-gate is not used to regulat boost. technically the MGU-H regulats the turbo function and so also boost. That is apart from other system which are involved in safeguarding and miantaining the desired boost level, such as the compressor intake throttling system and the ICE intake planuim POV.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 08 Jun 2023, 00:22
by gruntguru
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:55
Furthermore, Honda showed even with Naturally Aspirated engines that the port may or may not choke, depending.
I would be interested to see more detail on an exhaust port that doesn't choke. Cylinder pressure at EVO is several times port pressure and a big valve still has a small curtain area when it is just off the seat.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 08 Jun 2023, 14:58
by Hoffman900
gruntguru wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 00:22
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:55
Furthermore, Honda showed even with Naturally Aspirated engines that the port may or may not choke, depending.
I would be interested to see more detail on an exhaust port that doesn't choke. Cylinder pressure at EVO is several times port pressure and a big valve still has a small curtain area when it is just off the seat.
At very small valve lifts as the valve lifts off the seat, then annulus between the two, sure, but I can tell you they didn’t have the technology to measure that when that graph you shared was made.
http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_10e.pdf
What’s the SOS of exhaust gasses when first cracked open on a current Formula One engine?
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 08 Jun 2023, 15:49
by Tommy Cookers
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 14:58
.... I can tell you they didn’t have the technology to measure that when that graph you shared was made.
as J.C.Morrison openly published details in 1951 (of his high-speed scanning valves and manometry)
presumably the NACA Lewis Propulsion Laboratory was using scanning in WW2 in compounding and exhaust work
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 09 Jun 2023, 04:34
by gruntguru
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 14:58
gruntguru wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 00:22
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑07 Jun 2023, 14:55
Furthermore, Honda showed even with Naturally Aspirated engines that the port may or may not choke, depending.
I would be interested to see more detail on an exhaust port that doesn't choke. Cylinder pressure at EVO is several times port pressure and a big valve still has a small curtain area when it is just off the seat.
What’s the SOS of exhaust gasses when first cracked open on a current Formula One engine?
What's important is not the SOS but the critical pressure ratio which remains close to 0.5 for the range of temperatures typical for exhaust gas. So flow across the valve will be critical from EVO until cylinder pressure drops to less than double the port pressure.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 09 Jun 2023, 04:36
by gruntguru
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 15:49
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑08 Jun 2023, 14:58
.... I can tell you they didn’t have the technology to measure that when that graph you shared was made.
as J.C.Morrison openly published details in 1951 (of his high-speed scanning valves and manometry)
presumably the NACA Lewis Propulsion Laboratory was using scanning in WW2 in compounding and exhaust work
Brilliant stuff that.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 09 Jun 2023, 04:45
by gruntguru
That paper speaks of choking in the port throat - not across the valve seat.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 09 Jun 2023, 04:47
by Hoffman900
gruntguru wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:45
That paper speaks of choking in the port throat - not across the valve seat.
Depends on curtain area. You have no idea what that is in the current engines or what a P-V diagram looks like. So yeah, it likely occurs, but citing an old chart isn't applicable.
It's the same when you tried to use 30 year old graphs to argue with a then AVL combustion engineer now Ilmor.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 12 Jun 2023, 01:19
by gruntguru
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:47
gruntguru wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:45
That paper speaks of choking in the port throat - not across the valve seat.
It's the same when you tried to use 30 year old graphs to argue with a then AVL combustion engineer now Ilmor.
. . . and with that comment your level of understanding neatly slips several rungs in my estimation.
A combustion engineer who argued that increasing turbo boost would dramatically increase pumping losses.
Also that best TE occurs at stoich????
Clearly you can get a job at AVL or Ilmor as a "combustion engineer" without knowing much beyond how stuff burns.
Perhaps you would like to re-open that old thread and argue his case? Personally I think he has reconsidered. Perhaps he eventually raised the points with some knowledgeable colleagues?
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 12 Jun 2023, 01:34
by gruntguru
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:47
gruntguru wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:45
That paper speaks of choking in the port throat - not across the valve seat.
Depends on curtain area. You have no idea what that is in the current engines or what a P-V diagram looks like. So yeah, it likely occurs, but citing an old chart isn't applicable.
Pat Symonds video tells us a lot about what is in the current engines.
The "old chart" illustrates the point just fine.
. . . and the point(s) made in my post remain valid - advancing technology has not invalidated any of them, despite your (mis)interpretation of the Honda paper.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 12 Jun 2023, 04:52
by Zynerji
gruntguru wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 01:34
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:47
gruntguru wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:45
That paper speaks of choking in the port throat - not across the valve seat.
Depends on curtain area. You have no idea what that is in the current engines or what a P-V diagram looks like. So yeah, it likely occurs, but citing an old chart isn't applicable.
Pat Symonds video tells us a lot about what is in the current engines.
The "old chart" illustrates the point just fine.
. . . and the point(s) made in my post remain valid - advancing technology has not invalidated any of them, despite your (mis)interpretation of the Honda paper.
For this type of TJI turbo engine layout, would it be worth to just increase the stroke by 5mm? Would that significantly change the output hysteresis? I mean. Same flow limits, but more time acting on the pistons?
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 12 Jun 2023, 06:55
by saviour stivala
Zynerji wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 04:52
gruntguru wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 01:34
Hoffman900 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2023, 04:47
Depends on curtain area. You have no idea what that is in the current engines or what a P-V diagram looks like. So yeah, it likely occurs, but citing an old chart isn't applicable.
Pat Symonds video tells us a lot about what is in the current engines.
The "old chart" illustrates the point just fine.
. . . and the point(s) made in my post remain valid - advancing technology has not invalidated any of them, despite your (mis)interpretation of the Honda paper.
For this type of TJI turbo engine layout, would it be worth to just increase the stroke by 5mm? Would that significantly change the output hysteresis? I mean. Same flow limits, but more time acting on the pistons?
Increasing the stroke by 5mm? Means a considerably smaller bore which forces the use of also considerably smaller valves which in turn pushes for smaller ports and!!!
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 12 Jun 2023, 17:53
by Zynerji
saviour stivala wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 06:55
Zynerji wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 04:52
gruntguru wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 01:34
Pat Symonds video tells us a lot about what is in the current engines.
The "old chart" illustrates the point just fine.
. . . and the point(s) made in my post remain valid - advancing technology has not invalidated any of them, despite your (mis)interpretation of the Honda paper.
For this type of TJI turbo engine layout, would it be worth to just increase the stroke by 5mm? Would that significantly change the output hysteresis? I mean. Same flow limits, but more time acting on the pistons?
Increasing the stroke by 5mm? Means a considerably smaller bore which forces the use of also considerably smaller valves which in turn pushes for smaller ports and!!!
No. Not reducing bore. Just increasing stroke. Make them 2.0l or whatever.
I'm just thinking more action time on piston extracts more energy. With flow limits in place already, they would not really gain from the displacement increase in the traditional sense...
Since they lean burn already, it would just start in that condition instead of artificially controlling everything to create a virtual one.
Re: F1 Energy store density for 2026 and hot swap batteries
Posted: 13 Jun 2023, 05:56
by saviour stivala
''No. Not reducing the bore, just increase the stroke. Make them 2.0l."A racing engine is not made like that. Increasing the stroke by 5mm to up capacity to 2.0l, the bore will be way too small, bore stroke ratio will not be of racing pedigree. that is apart from everything else that matter, 'valves/ports' included being out of sync with a 2.0l formula one engine, And doing that on a racing engine, the only thing gained will be a higher fuel consumption for a race distance than at present.