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xpensive wrote: Giving F1 covered wheels would be more of granting the whole thing a modern image

Why do you think closed wheels would convey modernity?

Jersey Tom wrote:I don't see the need to go to 18", nor do I understand what it would gain for Michelin.

In my view what michelin stands to gain is simply publicity/market. Put it like this, if they go 18", the next day after the first race i'll get to the office and the same bloke who knows nothing about F1 but that approached me and said "hey did you know Schumi is making a comeback" will also tell me "hey did you see those 18" tyres on yesterday's race? it's because michelin is back you know?"
Going from 13"to 18" will make it an 'in your face, you can't ignore' type of change. Otherwise most people wouldn't know there was a manufacturer change. Heck most guys in my car mechanics school think F1 uses v10s. If michelin is to move in, they want everyone to know there's a new kid in town, or that some old kid returned to town, whatever. Plus there's the value of novelty for the sake of novelty.
Throw into the mix a nice market speech saying the tyres are more modern, efficient, road relevant, green, etc. and everyone will think michelin just came in and showed bridgestone how it's done in the 21st century. They may even consider keeping the green colored stripe on options just for the cool, modern and high techy looks.

It would be like that one guy who came on here asking if his Potenza tires were soft, medium, or hard compound like those in F1. WTF? I can only imagine what he would think if F1 had 18" tyres, "Whoa, I have the same tyres as that Renault R31!"

If you're not ignorant you wouldn't think so naively and you wouldn't believe all of that hype about road relevance and greenness. This is F1 FFS. If you're looking for closed wheel and large diameter wheels/tyres there are plenty of series with prototypes and GT's for you that cater especially to the road car market and brag about how their technology transfers over almost directly.

alelanza wrote:

xpensive wrote: Giving F1 covered wheels would be more of granting the whole thing a modern image

Why do you think closed wheels would convey modernity?

I believe he refers to closed wheels being a more efficient design, and efficiency is what's considered modern.

alelanza wrote:

xpensive wrote: Giving F1 covered wheels would be more of granting the whole thing a modern image

Why do you think closed wheels would convey modernity?

Because open Wheels is in itself an anachronism from the days you didn't know any better, while as said before the concept is dying in the US when there's no customer orientation to it. The same will happen in Europe, like a Mercedes with open wheels, where can I buy that?

xpensive wrote:

alelanza wrote:

xpensive wrote: Giving F1 covered wheels would be more of granting the whole thing a modern image

Why do you think closed wheels would convey modernity?

Because open Wheels is in itself an anachronism from the days you didn't know any better, while as said before the concept is dying in the US when there's no customer orientation to it. The same will happen in Europe, like a Mercedes with open wheels, where can I buy that?

When has that question even been asked about F1? That has nothing to do with what F1 is about. It's not about being similar your daily driver or even a sports car. It's an absurd race series that compares to how a Ferrari or Pagani relate to normal road cars.

The 18" wheel diameter is just considered because it would fool the ignorant and "almost" fans. It's about going mainstream and joining the bandwagon.


Note: I hope I don't look back at these posts in the distant future and regret what I said.

Your only hope is that MrE snaps out of the idea, remember the failed Procar series with that monstrous Alfa 164?

And it will be back. Remember how easy it was to to turn F5000 into CanAm II by putting fenders on a Lola chassis?

Ten years from noow there will be no open wheel racing, believe me.

Here is a photoshop on what it would look like:





Source: http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t= ... 58&start=0&

imightbewrong wrote:Here is a photoshop on what it would look like:





Source: http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t= ... 58&start=0&

hey, it does even look bad; but if it relates to road car tyre technology, why should there be any fuss??

what, I miss the fenders?

The McLaren on low profile looks stunning.

The question is not about open or closed wheel racing, but about the size of the rims. The matter of "open wheel" raicing came about when some of the early racers, which incidentally would have been saloons or sports cars, removed their mudguards, to lighten the vehicles.

It then seemed to become tradition to race with open wheels. There is no other relevance to open wheel cars. The proposed new Indycars, are showing signs of having enclosed wheels.

The main issue here, on this thread, is the SIZE of the rims, and Michelins insistence of 18" rims, for no other purpose than to upset the apple cart. I dont demand 13" wheels on my car, just because F1 cars use these. This proves it is of litle relevance.

Of more relevance are the mechanical changes neccessary to accomodate Michelin. Should F1 be held to ransom by Michelin?? Unfortunately they will probably win out, as there is no other tyre supplier around.

So going by past experience, the circuits may have to be altered so that their tyres can last a race distance!

I'm so glad the rules have prohibited spinners! Imagine blinged-up F1 cars on their low profiles...

Just_a_fan wrote:I'm so glad the rules have prohibited spinners! Imagine blinged-up F1 cars on their low profiles...

And where is that not written, I think it wouldn't be such a bad idea actually? Spinners... yeah...and Wunderbaum and fuzzy dices in the coupe, pimp my ride!

gilgen wrote:
Of more relevance are the mechanical changes neccessary to accomodate Michelin. Should F1 be held to ransom by Michelin?? Unfortunately they will probably win out, as there is no other tyre supplier around.

Or indeed, should they be held to ransom by Bridgestone? Or any other supplier?

Don't forget - F1 needs tyre suppliers; tyre suppliers don't need F1.

So going by past experience, the circuits may have to be altered so that their tyres can last a race distance!

As tyre changes are allowed, the longevitiy of the tyre is not really an issue - especially when one considers that some have suggested mandating two tyre changes in each race in order to add interest.

I don't think that Bridgestone, or any other tyre manufacturer, has imposed any pre-conditions for supply. It is only Michelin that are making size an issue!

Very few people want two tyre stops, in fact, NO tyre stops would be the most favoured solution, But I was referring to the reasons that Michelin withdrew before. They did not make a tyre that was capable of withstanding the forces of a banked track. What if they make another defective tyre, should F1 then be stopped?

gilgen wrote:I don't think that Bridgestone, or any other tyre manufacturer, has imposed any pre-conditions for supply.

They sure have. They want 80 mil $ to supply.

The total cost per annum of the current supply contract for Bridgestone is 120 mil $. I reckon that Michelin attach a substantial value like 20 or 30 mil to the advertising aspect of low profile tyres.



A bit of info who plays in the global market which is exceeding 1,1 billion tyres and 150 billion $ value. 72% or 108 billion US $ are after market spend by consumers who usually buy by style rather than by technical data.

http://www.1888pressrelease.com/global- ... 856g8.html

A global tyre market report predicted the preference of 18 inch low profile tyres.

One of the main reasons for changes in tyre dimensions is appearance; people like the highly styled wheels with low profile tyres. "It used to be that the standard wheel diameter was14- or 15-inch," said an auto executive. "But now that has risen dramatically to 16- or 17-inch. We're also seeing quite a lot of 18-inch wheel business. We're also getting more and more requests for future business with 20-inch wheels. And we're seeing those larger diameter wheels being fitted right across the board." Another executive perceived this trend occurring in Europe, too. He said: "Wheels are definitely going to larger diameters on the higher end vehicles or on the higher end option packages on mid-level vehicles. We see aluminium wheel fitment gradually increasing alongside larger diameter, low profile tyres."

The 18 inch segment should be by far the most profitable for the tyre manufacturers. It is also estimated to become the biggest segment in 2011 or 2012. An educated guess would locate 35-40% of the total company profit in that market.



There are tons of data for download at http://www.michelin.com/corporate/front ... 41&lang=EN



Last year Michelin had a net income of 104 million € from 14.8 billion € sales. Their average net income over the last five years has been 540 mil €.

It is quite clear that even Michelin with the biggest market share and probably the best margins cannot afford to spend 120 mil $ willy nilly on F1 unless they gain a huge marketing push in their most profitable 18 inch market segment.