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GTSpeedster wrote:but there is no doubt that from the strictly legal point of view there's not a chance in hell that Mercedes/Pirelli will get away clean from this.

If it were so clear you think that the teams either was stupid enough to not realize it or they thought "ah what the hell, let´s just do it and face the consequences afterwards"?

I´m pretty sure it´s not that clear cut as you make it seem to be.

That's what the Tribunal will decide. Whether that resolves it is another point entirely. Any descion that leaves grey areas or loopholes, will be exploited in the future. So the finding must consider fundamentally how the rules are read and its precedence over any side descions. If you let them off, you'll have every other team using the exact same loophole - hello track testing again.

Cam wrote:That's what the Tribunal will decide. Whether that resolves it is another point entirely. Any descion that leaves grey areas or loopholes, will be exploited in the future. So the finding must consider fundamentally how the rules are read and its precedence over any side descions. If you let them off, you'll have every other team using the exact same loophole - hello track testing again.

If so, it would still be limited to 1000km each team. And of course, them constraints Mercedes had, the other teams also will have.

strad wrote:

If you open the picture and zoom in on the tire you can see there is an R written on the tire. And also a direction arrow pointing the "wrong" way.

Ah....Thanks

Has anyone in internet land compiled photo's from the season so far to ascertain who's swapping rears ?

I would, but you know, too busy looking at stuff...

Cam wrote:If you let them off, you'll have every other team using the exact same loophole - hello track testing again.

That´s up to Pirelli to decide. It was their test afterall. Not Mercedes.

SectorOne wrote:

GTSpeedster wrote:but there is no doubt that from the strictly legal point of view there's not a chance in hell that Mercedes/Pirelli will get away clean from this.

If it were so clear you think that the teams either was stupid enough to not realize it or they thought "ah what the hell, let´s just do it and face the consequences afterwards"?

I´m pretty sure it´s not that clear cut as you make it seem to be.

The answer couldn't be simpler as all criminals, cheaters and rule breakers in general always think they can get away with it one way or another.

Nonetheless what they did or did not think is irrelevant. Ignorantia legis neminem excusat (ignorance of the law excuses no one).

GTSpeedster wrote:The answer couldn't be simpler as all criminals, cheaters and rule breakers in general always think they can get away with it one way or another.

Ever heard the term innocent until proven guilty?

I´d probably take it easy calling Mercedes and Pirelli criminals, cheaters and rule breakers.

SectorOne wrote:

GTSpeedster wrote:The answer couldn't be simpler as all criminals, cheaters and rule breakers in general always think they can get away with it one way or another.

Ever heard the term innocent until proven guilty?

I´d probably take it easy calling Mercedes and Pirelli criminals, cheaters and rule breakers.

Since I'm a lawyer I'm well familiar with the expression, yes. But I'd say that since it's a fact that they have tested, using the 2013 car, without the knowledge of all of the other teams, it’s pretty straightforward to say that they've broken they rules and therefore this is pretty much a "proven" fact. Unless the FIA internation court decides to ignore the rules and the facts and simply be a political organ they will most definitively rule in this direction.

SectorOne wrote:

GTSpeedster wrote:The answer couldn't be simpler as all criminals, cheaters and rule breakers in general always think they can get away with it one way or another.

Ever heard the term innocent until proven guilty?

I´d probably take it easy calling Mercedes and Pirelli criminals, cheaters and rule breakers.

For the record, I don't think anyone has actually called either of them cheaters. Other teams, wider media, forum members, the FIA, the Stewards and the general public have raised suspicion and called into question why the Sporting Regulations were broken. Hence it's being passed it to the Tribunal.

Are you prepared to accept Mercedes broke the Regs, if the Tribunal find it so? What do you call people who break the rules?

IMO, Merc knew they couldn't test a current car. They also knew Pirelli had a joker card - 1000km testing and 'safety' concerns. If it was spruked the right way, through all the grey, they might get away with a 3 day test. Was it worth the gamble? Answer is - no. Otherwise they would've had concrete answers, unanimous team approval and a public thumbs up - before the event.

Knowing that ignorance is not an excuse, they approached the FIA to get 'approval' to go ahead. But did they get it? Certainly it seems the FIA approved 1000kms of testing - under the current regulations (that's what it seems Merc has broken). Throw in Pirelli's new possible contract, 'safety', arbitrage and the lack of other teams and the media knowing what was happening - and you have a highly suspicious act. Why else do you think all the teams are angry - do you think they're all wrong?

Why on earth Merc agreed is probably down to politics as well. A small fine to counter a 3 day test is arguably how they internally justified the blow black they knew would occur. Plus they can always blame Pirelli as "it's their test" - plausible deniability. Pirelli on the other hand are playing hard ball contract negotiations, they have nothing to loose - they don't have a contract, so nothing to loose - everything to gain. And it appears they think they're in the box seat. Ego makes people do stupid things.

So what rules supreme? The Sporting Regulations, or secondary supplier contracts. If secondary contracts hold up, RedBull will be back with Magneti Marelli quick step - as they'll need 1000kms testing as well - do you see where this is going?

Take the fanboy away and look at it as a whole - it cannot be allowed to happen again - who's in charge is being questioned - and performance gains, more than ever, are being found in legal documents. None of which are good for the sport.

I don't think this is a very big problem. It is artificially inflated because it fits the power that be. I also think that some people here are much to emotional and in crusader mood, which is not appropriate to the issue in my view.

How quickly we all forget - so to jog the memories, here's an article about Bridgestone and their time in F1. The over arching aspect taken away from reading this is the reach for excellence. That aspect has been shot and buried in a shallow grave in the stakeholders backyard.

When Bridgestone announced that it was exiting F1, FIA and FOTA (representing the constructors teams) issued an appeal for Bridgestone to reconsider and stay involved in F1. It was reported in the media, so some people may have heard about it, but the reality is that it was a highly emotional moment.
I've covered F1 for many years, but I have never heard of any other case of those organisations ever appealing, publically or privately, to a Japanese company to reconsider a decision. Nor do I expect it to ever happen again.
Bridgestone did what it had to do in calling an end to the F1 era at the company, but I would hope that a lot of people know about these circumstances. F1 is not only a global sporting event enjoyed by hundreds of millions of people worldwide, it is in a sense a facet of European culture, and a showcase for cutting-edge automotive technologies. And Bridgestone had an instrumental presence in all that.....

Read more here - http://mshistory.bridgestone.co.jp/db/c ... 35&lang=en

Legacy. That's what this whole saga has ruined. As F1 moves further away from the pinnacle of motorsport to a sideshow run by clowns - this is what we all loose. We loose the gift of looking back and saying "what a great time in F1". No one will ever look back and say that about the Pirelli era. It'll be a joke. Something to laugh at. Over 50 years of glorious history only to be tarnished and possibly destroyed in under 3 years - for what?

With Pirelli playing these 'test' games - it only adds to the insult and dark stain on the sport. Pirelli don't reach for excellence - they reach for excuses.

I'm afraid it will be another internal struggle between Todt and Ecclestone with the teams mainly sitting on the fence suspiciously watching out that none of them gets the smallest advantage.

That's a pretty accurate statement. While Cam speaks of "our" sport being run by clowns, the truth is that Formula One has ALWAYS been run by clowns, from Balestre and Mosley to Ecclestone and Briatore. All have been/are buffoons and THAT is the true legacy of Formula One.

To be accurate, Le Grand Bernard is an egotistical ass who has one objective and one only: To leverage his position as commercial rights holder into as much personal wealth as humanly possible. He has driven the sport towards glitz and glamor and away from competition. The teams are just boot lickers to Bernie's pretentiousness. None of this sort of schlomozzle is going to end while Bernie continues to hold the reins of power. The teams had a chance to give him the boot some years ago by forming their own organization, but Bernie eventually prevailed, overmatcing the combined power of Ferrari, McLaren and all the other teams. It is he who has been pushing Pirelli to produce the crappy tires we have on offer this year. He loves all this controversy, believing like every politician that any publicity is good publicity, even negative publicity.

Nations are lining up to curry favor with Bernie so he will decree a new race within their borders. The fact that he has horribly mismanaged so many pieces of his empire seems to do nothing to diminish the awesomeness of his power.

And so, nothing substantial will come from all this sturm und drang about private testing. Bernie has determined the result of the World Council's deliberations in advance. Cam speaks of tradition but the fact is that great political maneuverings have always been the hallmark of Formula One racing. I doubt it will change substantially in my lifetime.

Unless the Germans throw Bernie in jail! Which is precisely where the sick and twisted old bastard belongs!

Holm86 wrote:Is it even legal?? I seem to remember something about a pitstop error where someone got the leftside tires on the right side and vise versa. Or was it fronts and rears from 2 diffirent sets. I cant remember. But they got a penalty.

I don't remember left vs right/front vs rear, but I do remember that Hockenheim 2010 saw Liuzzi and Sutil getting each other's tyres in the pitstop, and both had to double back into the pits the next lap.

raymondu999 wrote:

Holm86 wrote:Is it even legal?? I seem to remember something about a pitstop error where someone got the leftside tires on the right side and vise versa. Or was it fronts and rears from 2 diffirent sets. I cant remember. But they got a penalty.

I don't remember left vs right/front vs rear, but I do remember that Hockenheim 2010 saw Liuzzi and Sutil getting each other's tyres in the pitstop, and both had to double back into the pits the next lap.

Yeah its illegal to use your teammates tyres cause he might not have the same allocation left, thats why but left and right should be OK cause it doesnt change the amount of tyres or anything if you keep it within the correct sets.

Ya know...I don't see pictures of the tires with arrows and designation right or left.
I think that is writing done by Mercedes and just for their personal use and therefore nonbinding.
They can use what they thought would be a left, on the right, if they wish.
No doubt they choose a color that matches the tire color simply for aesthetic reasons.