F1technical.net

There is something very interesting in engine design these days...
When we hear the word "swirl" we often just pass it off as fluid dynamics mumbo jumbo.... But it has big implications on the design of the intake runner and the inlet valve.


Remember in the naturally aspirated engines days where you wanted as steep as an angle as you can get for runner to increase flow to maximum? The valves were steeply angled and the runner amgle was so outragous you could almost look down into the cylinder!! This makes sense for high flow.. And provides good mixing if you are using port injection.. If you are using direct injection though you will have a problem!! You see the more vertical the inlet port angle the air flow comes down on both sides of the valve and it makes an evloping shape of two swirls that run down the cylinder walls and curl back and crash into each other. Dieing way too early before the injection point. Mixing is haphazard and low down in the cylinder too. Enter the swirl style intake port.. It is counter intuitive to the high angle port... Ultimate air flow is sacrificed for a proper formed single swirl that occurs on one side of the cylinder wall. The swirl propogates longer because there is no other swirl to crash into. The port is more horizontal and the valve angle is made so that the valve acts as a ramp to trip the air stream into a swirl. The air almost only spills over on one side of the valve head.
So because the air is ostly spilling on one side you have to make the valve bigger to make up for the reduced flow path.

So yeah designing for swirl makes a totally different intake runner shape. A totally different look and almost against everything we have seen from the naturally aspirated days.

It makes me wonder how those NA engines would be with dual injection and optimized swirl design?

Honda of course has this design down pat. Because they use it in their road cars. Toyota utilizes it as well. Actually Toyota is probably the leader in overall combustion design i have heard. But anyway.. Imagine how these swirl patterns affect the TJI? So many little nuances...

Very interesting! Also think about controlling the swirl at 3 to 4 bar intake pressures.

etusch wrote: ↑

19 Jun 2017, 18:23

Hasegawa says that when they improved ice efficiency there is much loss on mgu-h efficiency. I remember this was subject of this thread at earlier pages. And something more which is mentioned here by Wazari san. 2019 Williams Honda championchip.

Yea that sounds more like they are increasing efficiency by improving something else mechanically rather than combustion; like power on the power stroke, but aren't actually improving available energy from the combustion itslef.

Hasegawa: "In Azerbaijan we will bring some news about combustion. We do not know yet whether we will bring the whole package or the intermediate news, but there will be news that will help the riders. The situation is very complicated and we are doing our best to get out of this terribly difficult situation. "

It would be good to test whole update.I don't know what are they waiting for.

godlameroso wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 00:09

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

19 Jun 2017, 23:29

ZakB wrote: ↑

19 Jun 2017, 12:30

Hasegawa confirmed that the new spec will come in Baku, although this shouldn't be seen as spec 3.0.

Finally!!

But I didn´t notice there was a 2.0

Spec 1 was pre-season, spec 2 was Melbourne, spec 2.1 was China spec 2.2 was Bahrain test, spec 2.3 was Barcelona, so maybe this is spec 2.4?

Melbourne spec 2.0?

Did it have any mayor difference with the PU tested in winter? I was assuming it was the same spec since, IIRC, Honda stated they had no time to make any significant change and it only had some tweaks and mapping changes

alexa wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 11:55

Hasegawa: "In Azerbaijan we will bring some news about combustion. We do not know yet whether we will bring the whole package or the intermediate news, but there will be news that will help the riders. The situation is very complicated and we are doing our best to get out of this terribly difficult situation. "

It would be good to test whole update.I don't know what are they waiting for.

Posts like this baffle me. Presumably they're waiting for ... the update. They are still working on it. Updates don't traverse a binary path from non-existent to existent, there is quite a lot of work in between thinking of something and the finished working example, sometimes including a bit where you find out it doesn't work as you thought and you have to modify it, or just do something else altogether.

bigblue wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 12:37

alexa wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 11:55

Hasegawa: "In Azerbaijan we will bring some news about combustion. We do not know yet whether we will bring the whole package or the intermediate news, but there will be news that will help the riders. The situation is very complicated and we are doing our best to get out of this terribly difficult situation. "

It would be good to test whole update.I don't know what are they waiting for.

Posts like this baffle me. Presumably they're waiting for ... the update. They are still working on it. Updates don't traverse a binary path from non-existent to existent, there is quite a lot of work in between thinking of something and the finished working example, sometimes including a bit where you find out it doesn't work as you thought and you have to modify it, or just do something else altogether.

it's a hexadecimal path!!

alexa wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 11:55

Hasegawa: "In Azerbaijan we will bring some news about combustion. We do not know yet whether we will bring the whole package or the intermediate news, but there will be news that will help the riders. The situation is very complicated and we are doing our best to get out of this terribly difficult situation. "

It would be good to test whole update.I don't know what are they waiting for.

Wow.. this is what I want to hear. They should have went balls to the wall from day one!

I don't know how much one should trust Ted, but he speaks about Honda going to Mercedes as a done deal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5sqbKX6gQg

gruntguru wrote: ↑

19 Jun 2017, 03:11

bill shoe wrote: ↑

18 Jun 2017, 16:37

For sure, it may have more energy density (more combustion energy per kg of fuel, so peak hp may not increase but average hp during race may be higher)

Peak HP would also increase unless there was some other limiting factor.

OK, yup it would have more peak power with higher energy density.

Honda going to Mercedes? For what? To buy back their team? The current Mercedes team is the old Honda team afterall.

Meanwhile Renault is clearly sending a message that they are willing to supply 4th team (read McLaren)

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-r ... am-920429/

I think it would be wise to consider engine without performance mode restrictions that Mercedes imposes.Renault are not that far off,and next year they will probably match Merc and Ferrari.

alexa wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 21:20

Meanwhile Renault is clearly sending a message that they are willing to supply 4th team (read McLaren)

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-r ... am-920429/

I think it would be wise to consider engine without performance mode restrictions that Mercedes imposes.Renault are not that far off,and next year they will probably match Merc and Ferrari.

I like this man's statements. I was expecting from Renault to be best at the end of this season but reliability cease their plans. I hope Honda also be good next year. That's too bad 3 PU per driver in a season. I don't even like 1 PU for 5 race. It becomes LeMan like something. I think it must not go far from 1 PU for 5 race.

nzjrs wrote: ↑

20 Jun 2017, 18:33

I don't know how much one should trust Ted, but he speaks about Honda going to Mercedes as a done deal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5sqbKX6gQg

He has done these things before, I doubt there is anything signed.

When asked by GPUpdate.net if Mercedes was open to supplying McLaren in 2018, Wolff replied: "This is not our priority at the moment.

"First, we would like to see Honda and McLaren sorting out their relationship."

He added: "If you are being considered as the new bride, you want the couple to divorce first, before you jump into the bed."


Done deal imo