F1technical.net

Cam wrote:For the record, I don't think anyone has actually called either of them cheaters. Other teams, wider media, forum members, the FIA, the Stewards and the general public have raised suspicion and called into question why the Sporting Regulations were broken. Hence it's being passed it to the Tribunal.

Are you prepared to accept Mercedes broke the Regs, if the Tribunal find it so? What do you call people who break the rules?

Well you are borderline doing that right now, like when you ask "what do you call people who break the rules"

From the information you have gathered it´s clear what your standpoint is in all of this.
For me, i´m of the opinion that Pirelli/FIA/Mercedes sits on slightly more information then what is publicly available.
And assumes all parties are innocent until proven guilty.

Are you prepared to accept Mercedes following the rulebook, if the Tribunal find it so?

Of course. I can't see how they haven't broken the regs, but sure, if they rule they haven't and explain why in clear terms that we can all understand, then yes.

MOWOG wrote:...Unless the Germans throw Bernie in jail! Which is precisely where the sick and twisted old bastard belongs!

They must first convict him and then get him. But I wholeheartedly agree with the proposition.

Pirelli is allowed to request teams to assist with its development programme using a current spec car, a clause stating as much is written into its commercial contract with Formula One.

Hembrey:

"In common with other FIA contracts we've had, including the world championship, we can ask the teams if they'd like to perform 1000km of tyre testing with us. It was all done with co-ordination with the FIA, and Mercedes co-ordinated the FIA as other teams have done in the past."

Pirelli and Mercedes-AMG were advised by the FIA that such a development test could be possible if carried out by Pirelli, as opposed to the team that would provide the car and driver, and that such tests would be conditional upon every team being given the same opportunity to test in order to ensure full sporting equity.

Other teams where invited, but only some responded.

It's an ongoing request. We sent a letter last year when we chose the 2010 car saying to the teams ‘by the way we have in our contract 1000km of tyre testing and if you're interested let us know’. Some teams responded to our request, some didn't. We can only do it with teams that have expressed interest.

The problem is the internet is awash with false rumours. As the SKY journo said this was a "secret" test, despite the fact Ferrari and Red Bull knew about it before hand.
A Pirelli spokesman said Ferrari was invited to test and turned down the offer, while Dr Helmut Marko said a Red Bull engineer had also been "informally" asked.

The issues of Mercedes using development parts for added performance is also a bit silly, as you need to know what compound does what ,how and when. Given the teams history of tyres I think some people should know better than assume they would immediately gain an advantage when historically they have struggled, and that's with tyre compounds they know.
Further to this, it has come to light Mercedes only had 10 days warning about the test.

Toto Wolff

There was only ten days between the request and the test, which is not enough time to produce any development parts.

Nikki Lauda

When we were asked to do this, our team boss Ross Brawn called Charlie Whiting and asked if a test is compatible with the sporting regulations. Charlie consulted with the FIA lawyers and gave us the green light. Moreover, Pirelli didn't just ask us, but Red Bull as well.

Bernie Ecclestone was privy to the deal according to some quarters too, but I digress...Whiting represents the FIA, and he authorised it. In which capacity? We will soon find out.

The internet may be awash with rumours, but we have an FIA statement that is quite explicit that the test was not conducted in a way that complied with FIA requirements. Either people were told or they weren't, we'll find out in due course when the FIA confirm what happened. http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 45#p433645

As for "We can only do it with teams that have expressed interest", the FIA required them to tell everyone and let everyone attend, not just those who expressed an interest at some unknown point last year.

Put it this way, Pirelli could have diffused this in 5 min by sending the FIA & teams a copy of the notification. For some unfathomable reason they can't find that notification, and neither the FIA nor the teams remember getting it. So someone somewhere is not telling the full story.

IMHO this is poor management by Pirelli, a cock up rather than conspiracy.

What the FIA press release says is simply that they were never notified if Pirelli fullfilled the agreement of notifying every team and making sure every team had equal opportunity.

It doesn´t say anywhere that they had to notify FIA after fullfilling their part of the agreement.

It doesn´t say anywhere either that Pirelli failed to fullfill any of those agreements either.


It´s very cleverly written actually,

richard_leeds wrote:The internet may be awash with rumours, but we have an FIA statement that is quite explicit that the test was not conducted in a way that complied with FIA requirements.

Having re-read the statement, I have to ask, where does it state that ?

The statement simply says the FIA confirmed such a test "could be possible" but that "no further information" was provided about the test or confirmation that all teams had the "same opportunity to test".

It definitely doesn't state that the FIA required confirmation from Pirelli that the conditions had been met prior to scheduling the test. Which I guess is why it's gone to the International Tribunal to ascertain retrospectively if the conditions set by the FIA had been met.

All a big mess.

Fair point. Better to say the FIA is explicit that Pirelli have not demonstrated compliance with the FIA requirements.

It's telling that Pirelli haven't produced the paperwork.

richard_leeds wrote:Better to say the FIA is explicit that Pirelli have not demonstrated compliance with the FIA requirements.

It's telling that Pirelli haven't produced the paperwork.

Actually it doesn´t say that either.
And it doesn´t say that Pirelli needed to produce any paperwork before going ahead with the tests.

I didn't say that they were required to demonstrate compliance, just that that Pirelli hadn't demonstrated compliance.

I find it odd that Pirelli have not responded with evidence of notifying the teams. They can only mutter something about asking teams to express interest in a letter last year.

Ps - When I said “It is telling” in my previous post I was meaning “Pirelli’s actions are revealing”

richard_leeds wrote:I didn't say that they were required to demonstrate compliance, just that that Pirelli hadn't demonstrated compliance.

I find it odd that Pirelli have not responded with evidence of notifying the teams. They can only mutter something about asking teams to express interest in a letter last year.

Ps - When I said “It is telling” in my previous post I was meaning “Pirelli’s actions are revealing”

ok my bad,

"I find it odd that Pirelli have not responded with evidence of notifying the teams."

They might have, but not publically.

I've readed somewhere that they informed Red Bull and Ferrari, although those 2 deny that.

Not sure if they really weren't informed, or that they lie to get Mercedes into trouble. If I am correct, Pirelli specifically stated that they spoke to a Red Bull engineer.

Marko himself admitted that turbo.

Which makes Horner's comments puzzling(playing politician most likely), due to his diametrically opposed statements.

I believe that what was written was both red bull and Ferrari were told. They Claim that they weren't told that they could test with the 2013 car. They thought it would be another test with the 2011 car like the one they had done a couple of weeks before. To me the fact that Ferrari & Red Bull are ready to run a test with the 2013 Car tomorrow if asked is proof they didn't know.


That thing from Wolf about not being able to produce new parts in 10 days for the test. What does he take us for fools ? Like they don't have new parts in the pipe line? They've been accused of testing the new Gearbox casing that they brought to Monaco at Barcelona. So it isn't just test with the tires but just testing in general. If they did 200 laps at Barcelona, you how easy it is to test the same tire with different parts to give you accurate results? They may not of known if tyre-A was the 2014 tyre or if tyre-B was. They knew which ones were tyre-B and they knew ones were tyre-A. If they didn't know, I bet Nico And Lewis could tell you fairly quickly after a couple of runs with each.

diffuser wrote:I believe that what was written was both red bull and Ferrari were told. They Claim that they weren't told that they could test with the 2013 car. They thought it would be another test with the 2011 car like the one they had done a couple of weeks before. To me the fact that Ferrari & Red Bull are ready to run a test with the 2013 Car tomorrow if asked is proof they didn't know.


That thing from Wolf about not being able to produce new parts in 10 days for the test. What does he take us for fools ? Like they don't have new parts in the pipe line? They've been accused of testing the new Gearbox casing that they brought to Monaco at Barcelona. So it isn't just test with the tires but just testing in general. If they did 200 laps at Barcelona, you how easy it is to test the same tire with different parts to give you accurate results? They may not of known if tyre-A was the 2014 tyre or if tyre-B was. They knew which ones were tyre-B and they knew ones were tyre-A. If they didn't know, I bet Nico And Lewis could tell you fairly quickly after a couple of runs with each.

If they were testing the Gearbox, they don't actually need to know anything about any tyre they used, they would have run a gearbox for 1000(!) km, so to test reliability, temperatures, shift timings etc. its more then enough time to get valuable data, regardless of used tyres.