F1technical.net

Just hope this isnt about Honda pulling out all together. Using Kaltenborn exit as an easy way out of the contract.

Because thinking it about it this way- change of tone at McL Could also be because it's all settled and done.. all speculation of course but Honda pulling out because of management change just doesn't make any sense.

Btw comparing Merc/Ferrari development time to Honda doesn't make sense. Merc pioneered (law of handicap of a head start)- all kind of design and other relevant tech is available in a wider domain.

The thing is that other manufaturers opted for sticking to a design choice and then optimizing this. Whereas Honda had a miss hit with their first design, forcing them to do this radical overhaul. Which to compound difficulties they underestimated..

What of Sassi?, I see he and Ferrari have parted ways, they certainly have made strides this season re their engine, be silly in my opinion not to try get him onboard, what are the chances of something like this occurring?

MrNoo wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 13:49

What of Sassi?, I see he and Ferrari have parted ways, they certainly have made strides this season re their engine, be silly in my opinion not to try get him onboard, what are the chances of something like this occurring?

Sassi has been promoted into the parent company (FCA). He's essentially still inside the same group as Ferrari.

Besides that, Honda have already had an external plugged into their development (Gilles Simon) and then let him go. It's just not in their structure to buy in knowledge like that - at least, at present.

dren wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 12:54

Jef Patat wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 12:39

Didn't see that one coming.
"Sauber Honda engine deal off, claim sources"
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/saub ... ff-929575/

I understand the team owners want the team to be competitive, but they have to have operating funds flowing in from somewhere.

Sauber's ultimate backer appears to me to be Hans Rausing, who isn't short of a few billion Euros.
Sauber may be looking at what's happening with Honda's current form and considering the economic impact of running a very uncompetitive engine for a few seasons versus a known quantity with Ferrari who will typically be either leading or almost leading.

It is also not impossible that the Honda/Sauber deal might sour from the other side - because Honda have decided to put all their money into the McLaren deal. If Honda have a budget of say "100 units" to run Mclaren at the moment, running two teams would mean taking some units out of the McLaren deal to run Sauber. To run both teams would require, say, "125 units", which will not be available to HRD without Honda Corporate signing it off. They may decide instead to double-down, put all their resources into one team and development of just the PU for McLaren instead of trying to split the resources and ending up ultimately with a larger number of less well developed PUs than they currently have.

It only makes sense to have two or more teams if you have the resources to develop for all of them.

Another angle is that it's also possible that Ferrari want 3 Ferrari powered cars on the grid for political leverage reasons and may have made Sauber an offer they can't refuse, economically.

Think on this for a moment - for the new engine 2021+ engine formula, if you were Ferrari, would you want 3 votes (or proxies) against Renaults 3 and Mercedes 3, and Honda's 1, or would you like only the same voting power as Honda, with just two teams apiece - in which case Mercedes and Renault are effectively in charge of the new formula?

I believe the following:
Ferrari/Haas/Sauber all vote as one at the moment (because Ferrari have agreements).
Mercedes/Williams/Force India all vote as one (because Mercedes have agreements).
Renault/RBR/STR may all vote as one at the moment, if it suits RBR to do so, which it typically will.
Honda has no power to effect change at the moment, because mathematically they are isolated in this way.

If Sauber did move to Honda, Ferrari's voting power is diminished to 2, Hondas is increased to 2, and both Honda/Ferrari are relegated to second-tier by the voting mathematics (2 each versus 3 of the others).

Honda's best shot at effecting changes to the rules that Honda can gain competitiveness via, is by having both teams, and putting the additional resources in to make it work.

What do you guys think?

Craigy wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 14:05

Besides that, Honda have already had an external plugged into their development (Gilles Simon) and then let him go. It's just not in their structure to buy in knowledge like that - at least, at present.

An equally plausible explanation, one that was hinted at by Wazari and one which the evidence also supports, was that they had Gilles Simon and went with his architecture for the PU (against the wishes of others in Honda) and it turned out to be terrible.

Craigy wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 14:05

Besides that, Honda have already had an external plugged into their development (Gilles Simon) and then let him go. It's just not in their structure to buy in knowledge like that - at least, at present.

And it was confirmed that Ilien is helping them (after Simon got the boot).

Does anyone here think Honda might leave F1 from 2018+?

If contracts with both McLaren and Sauber are under review, it may point at a withdrawal.

Craigy wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 14:59

Does anyone here think Honda might leave F1 from 2018+?

If contracts with both McLaren and Sauber are under review, it may point at a withdrawal.

No at all, because honda not need F1 as marketing, but they need F1 because of technical standpoint. Im sure if they raised the contract to midfield team, works contract from an independent massive manufacturer as honda is still too good to be rejected

nzjrs wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 14:26

Craigy wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 14:05

Besides that, Honda have already had an external plugged into their development (Gilles Simon) and then let him go. It's just not in their structure to buy in knowledge like that - at least, at present.

An equally plausible explanation, one that was hinted at by Wazari and one which the evidence also supports, was that they had Gilles Simon and went with his architecture for the PU (against the wishes of others in Honda) and it turned out to be terrible.

Maybe it was the right architecture, but Honda's simulation tools we're not at a level that could allow progress quickly, and had to rely on trial and error. From what I understand this has been corrected, and we should be seeing some more progress and grid penalties happening in the next few months.

Some Translations from @hasika and @rudex

Despite having put in trouble-prevention MGU-H at the previous race Azerbaijan GP, ​​the upset was also felt in Honda about the trouble of being hit again in Austria just a second race. After running on Friday we completely disassembled and maintained the engine, reassembled again by night and put on the engine, the rotation speed of the turbocharger did not rise smoothly, the problem of the MGU - H directly connected to the turbo was discovered . It was decided to exchange the spare power unit in a hurry.

Even then, although there was a problem with the bearing of the shaft connected to the turbo, the cause was different from the countermeasure.

"The trouble itself is a mechanical problem of the bearing, which is the same as what has happened so far, but the cause is due to the inclusion of oil.I know that it is not good if oil and water etc. enter the turbo However, in the case of yesterday it was quite oil contaminated and I believe that this problem is irregular.The problem so far was caused by the lack of toughness of the bearing, I think that this thing has nothing to do with it. "

However, the fact that the MGU-H has broken again is an unchallenged fact, and in the next race British Grand Prix needs to be replaced, and again a grid relegation penalty will be imposed. ICE (engine body) introduced at Azerbaijan GP suffered damage during gearbox trouble, and in any case, as we had to introduce a new ICE at British Grand Prix, it was a new actual harm Absent. However, it is necessary to grasp the cause of trouble of repeated MGU - H surely and to pull the further improvement of ICE which is the main circle for power - up, unless it undoes "unexpected" like this time It is likely to become.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_10/

——There are some rumors that between honda and wiillams.
YM：I think the rumors are come from paddy lowe.He was still in mclaren when honda decided to return to F1,So he know us well.It seems he tell hasegawa that he want to have some talk with me.I think rumors came from here.But i had not talked with him yet.I am not interested in them either.

——There were some questions to hasegawa san if honda will set a factory team in friday's press conference.
YM：I have not ask him what he said yet,but i think its basiclly no plan now.I think if we say we want to build a works team,the board will not approve.Of course,if we begin to win races constantly,we maybe will think about it.So we are working hard now to solve the problems we suffered,nothing else.

——Honda could not get some good results in the third year,some fans are saying the honda will quit again.
YM：We will not.I had some talking with the board members and the big boss of honda group.No one say a single word like "quit".We have a long contract with mcalren,and we wont announce it again.

——There are some medias say hasegawa should give his position as there is no result.
YM：I think there is no need to change.The situation now is same or worse than 2015.This is fact.But from the technology point of view, we saw the limitation of the 2015/2016PU,there is no much potential.So in August we decided to make a big challenge.The decision was not made by hasegawa,but the whole honda staff.Also,mclaren agreed with us.We didnt get a good result yet,but i think its unfair to change hasegawa because of the decision.

http://www.as-web.jp/f1/141002?all

And finally, according to AMUS, it seems that there is a new modified MGUH
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 04445.html

Don't know if anyone can decypher anything useful out of it, but this is from Today in Silverstone:

Picture by AMuS:

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 11:24

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 11:11

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 10:34

Also, they've been developing the engine for over 4 years now and they aren't even close to where Mercedes was after 4 years of development.

Really? What facts are you using to make this sort of comparison?

Mercedes started development of the new PU in 2012. 4 years of development would put us in the 2016 season as a comparison point. Even Hasegawa admits they haven't matched Mercedes' PU from last year in terms of performance, not to mention reliability which is very far even from the 2014 numbers. And the bigger problems is that they don't just need to match the others' development pace, but surpass it, otherwise they'll always be at least one year behind.

I really want Mclaren to do well, I want Alonso to be able to fight for titles, but that's not a good enough reason to be overly optimistic about things. What have you guys seen that makes you so optimistic about this partnership's future success?

So you think Honda started working on his project only one year after Mercedes? I think Mercedes started his project much sooner

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 11:24

Mercedes started development of the new PU in 2012.

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 12:08

Andy Cowell, head of HPP said they've started in the second half of 2011.

Sudenly, it was one year before

Now you should rephrase your accusations... Is Honda 2017 at similar level to Mercedes 2015?


Anycase this is comparing apples to oranges, as Mercedes didn´t have any target to beat, while Honda need to beat three manufacturers with more expertise, so the requirements, the pressure and the targets can´t be compared

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

13 Jul 2017, 12:02

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 11:24

Mercedes started development of the new PU in 2012.

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2017, 12:08

Andy Cowell, head of HPP said they've started in the second half of 2011.

Sudenly, it was one year before

Now you should rephrase your accusations... Is Honda 2017 at similar level to Mercedes 2015?

Anycase this is comparing apples to oranges, as Mercedes didn´t have any target to beat, while Honda need to beat three manufacturers with more expertise, so the requirements, the pressure and the targets can´t be compared

We should compromise and rephrase it as "is Honda at a similar level to Mercedes in the second half of 2015?" And the answer would still be 'no'.

I agree with what you're saying in terms of their objectives, but the fact that they've made multiple mistakes, both engineering-wise and management-wise doesn't fill me with hope for the future. As I said, I hope I'm wrong and they turn out with a great engine in pre-season testing in 2018

For the ones in love with comparisons of spec 2 vs 3:

Vandoorne:

A lot of people were asking me about the 'Spec 3' engine, and how different it was from the 'Spec 2' used by Fernando.

To be honest, in terms of performance, there wasn't any significant difference from the cockpit and also data confirmed this feeling: there is still a lot of work to be done to fine-tune the settings before we can get the real benefit from it.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vand ... en-929899/