F1technical.net

alc59 wrote:

Renault can further optimalize its engine

I'd imagined that they might optimise its engine, but that's obviously not enough syllables.

Not enough for what? With another 20 bhp they are only ~30 bhp down on Mercedes by the end of this season (probably a bit more, as Mercedes won't stand still) and a bit less to Ferrari. This is much more everyone has hoped for this season.

I wonder what the ultimate peak power is, the all systems go can only run for short bursts or you melt the engine, peak power. I wonder if this power level is similar for all teams, and the difference is how close they can get to that peak without destroying something.

godlameroso wrote:I wonder what the ultimate peak power is, the all systems go can only run for short bursts or you melt the engine, peak power. I wonder if this power level is similar for all teams, and the difference is how close they can get to that peak without destroying something.

Why is this thing as limited as it is? Is material technology what's holding us back here? Weight? Various unobtainium compounds that are either too expensive or explicitly forbidden?

Well aluminum begins to weaken ~150c I mean you're allowed to use special coatings to control heat, but ultimately you're limited by the laws of thermodynamics. Theoretically there's a certain amount of energy you can get from gasoline, getting 50% of that is around 850 hp so I'd say that that's probably the limit of what they can do with the engine + 160 from the KERS I'd say they can see 1,000+hp but in bursts. Of course I'm just guessing.

godlameroso wrote:Well aluminum begins to weaken ~150c I mean you're allowed to use special coatings to control heat, but ultimately you're limited by the laws of thermodynamics. Theoretically there's a certain amount of energy you can get from gasoline, getting 50% of that is around 850 hp so I'd say that that's probably the limit of what they can do with the engine + 160 from the KERS I'd say they can see 1,000+hp but in bursts. Of course I'm just guessing.

Yes but what I'm referring to are these seemingly arbitrary limits on how many running hours the engine will take at a certain power setting. I mean, why isn't it viable to simple make the engine stronger? Do you see what I'm getting at? Clearly this isn't possible or they would all be doing it... but why?

hurril wrote:

godlameroso wrote:Well aluminum begins to weaken ~150c I mean you're allowed to use special coatings to control heat, but ultimately you're limited by the laws of thermodynamics. Theoretically there's a certain amount of energy you can get from gasoline, getting 50% of that is around 850 hp so I'd say that that's probably the limit of what they can do with the engine + 160 from the KERS I'd say they can see 1,000+hp but in bursts. Of course I'm just guessing.

Yes but what I'm referring to are these seemingly arbitrary limits on how many running hours the engine will take at a certain power setting. I mean, why isn't it viable to simple make the engine stronger? Do you see what I'm getting at? Clearly this isn't possible or they would all be doing it... but why?

Learn the difference between deflagration and detonation and you'll understand why once you understand that the engine manufacturers are straddling the line between the two very carefully.

godlameroso wrote:I wonder what the ultimate peak power is, the all systems go can only run for short bursts or you melt the engine, peak power. I wonder if this power level is similar for all teams, and the difference is how close they can get to that peak without destroying something.

I don't think the nature of the simple turbo geometry for Renault and the extra plumbing would give the same peak results as Ferrari and Mercedes. They struggled with heat from the beginning and I imagine they still do.

godlameroso wrote:

hurril wrote:

godlameroso wrote:Well aluminum begins to weaken ~150c I mean you're allowed to use special coatings to control heat, but ultimately you're limited by the laws of thermodynamics. Theoretically there's a certain amount of energy you can get from gasoline, getting 50% of that is around 850 hp so I'd say that that's probably the limit of what they can do with the engine + 160 from the KERS I'd say they can see 1,000+hp but in bursts. Of course I'm just guessing.

Yes but what I'm referring to are these seemingly arbitrary limits on how many running hours the engine will take at a certain power setting. I mean, why isn't it viable to simple make the engine stronger? Do you see what I'm getting at? Clearly this isn't possible or they would all be doing it... but why?

Learn the difference between deflagration and detonation and you'll understand why once you understand that the engine manufacturers are straddling the line between the two very carefully.

I do get the difference between then two. You do have a good point however; the more extreme power settings induce more and more detonation which causes a lot of vibration and loses power (afaik.)

I'd expect/guess the top surface of a high spec aluminium piston to be capable of 350 deg C + but/and there is no rule that says you must use aluminium?

Pistons, cylinder, and block are aluminum, however you're allowed coatings. So you can use frm liners for cylinders, or have special piston crowns.

godlameroso wrote:Pistons, cylinder, and block are aluminum, however ...

Articles 5.16 & 5.17 do not specify aluminium for the piston?

Given the severe combustion conditions, would anyone on here entertain the idea of a steel (/other) piston or insert?

Brian Coat wrote:

godlameroso wrote:Pistons, cylinder, and block are aluminum, however ...

Articles 5.16 & 5.17 do not specify aluminium for the piston?

Given the severe combustion conditions, would anyone on here entertain the idea of a steel (/other) piston or insert?

The much lower engine speeds they are running also would open the door for using something other than aluminum for piston material.

The engines are probably not solely aluminium but an alloy of some sort that can handle the higher temperatures.

The blocks are mostly aluminum and you're not allowed to use any exotic materials either. There's still scope to improve things, steel is still mostly iron after all, so small changes can have big influences. It's all in your alloy soup and your manufacturing techniques.

Godlameroso wrote:" ... you're not allowed to use any exotic materials either ..."

That is not what the rulebook says. It does not say "any".

For example, if we were considering a piston crown / top land insert material, we could choose from a multitude of Nickel Superalloys ... they are not prohibited.

The current rule book is daft on some things. You can't have the Ti fasteners you'd find on Johhny-go-faster's road bike but you can use exotic alloy fasteners which are "n" times more expensive!