VW means Porsche. Would they be taking over for Honda?
Don't know what Honda would get out of that though. It would not be any benefit to their name but seen as a Porsche.
I suppose they could do a deal to have Honda displayed on the car for the transition period and maybe have use of Red Bull staff in their PR.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
VW means Porsche. Would they be taking over for Honda?
Why not Audi, Lambourghini? Porsche and Audi both entered LMP1 independently although their budgets were much smaller than current F1 spending. Although Porsche are said to be much more at arms length from VAG while Audi are closer. When VAG was rumoured to be close to entering F1 in 2015 Audi would have been the brand.
If rumours were correct in 2015 then VAG were going to set up in Brackley at the Ilmor shop with Mario Ilien heading their project. Discussions were advanced enough for meetings to have taken place between Ilmor and Mercedes as Merc were concerned about VAG Ilmor poaching their staff. Then dieselgate...
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 29 Nov 2020, 01:07
by Jolle
If VAG would be in any talk with RedBull about entering F1 after 35 years since their last succes, the RBR demanded development freeze wouldn’t make sense.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
If VAG would be in any talk with RedBull about entering F1 after 35 years since their last succes, the RBR demanded development freeze wouldn’t make sense.
Agree. The development freeze only makes sense if you think you’re going to be stuck with the same PU ad infinitum.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 05 Dec 2020, 18:29
by godlameroso
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 06 Dec 2020, 05:25
by 63l8qrrfy6
That video is all bull..
The only way it can cost that much is if they have to pay full production tooling for each single piston.
I have a box of real F1 pistons some of which are much more complex than the one he is holding and I don't think I spent more than 100 quid on all of them.
Also 300g piston acceleration? That's so far off someone must have taken the piss.
And there's no billet pistons in F1.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
That video is all bull..
The only way it can cost that much is if they have to pay full production tooling for each single piston.
I have a box of real F1 pistons some of which are much more complex than the one he is holding and I don't think I spent more than 100 quid on all of them.
Also 300g piston acceleration? That's so far off someone must have taken the piss.
And there's no billet pistons in F1.
He's a driver, not an engineer. I'm not sure what he thought he was doing, making that video.
The piston G-force is off by a factor of about 30... (I sighed when I saw the video).
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 07 Dec 2020, 13:58
by saviour stivala
‘Pistons. Supposedly F1 and that video’’ It’s all to do with ‘the height of cultivation’ which is more or less about 2mm high.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 03:25
by holeindalip
Do you guys think F1 is using anything similar to these new piston rods?
That video is all bull..
The only way it can cost that much is if they have to pay full production tooling for each single piston.
I have a box of real F1 pistons some of which are much more complex than the one he is holding and I don't think I spent more than 100 quid on all of them.
Also 300g piston acceleration? That's so far off someone must have taken the piss.
And there's no billet pistons in F1.
One oem piston on a BMW M4 is ~$340 USD, one OEM piston on a Honda S2000 is ~$280+shipping these are forged pistons with an iron coating on the skirts.
I know high end pistons can easily get to 4 figures a piece.
$50k USD is a lot. Perhaps $50k for the set of 6 and rods, and rings. Then you're spending about ~$4,300 each which sounds about right.
I know for a fact Honda was using inconel exhaust manifolds in 2016 and those cost ~$40,000 USD each.
F1 pistons have a minimum weight of 300 grams.
We've heard of steel pistons, 3d printed pistons, so F1 pistons are forged? They're definitely not cast.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 17:11
by 63l8qrrfy6
No simple answer for piston costs unfortunately.
In the NA era a manufacturer would have paid a supplier for the forged blank then machine, shot peen and polish in-house then send the piston away for surface coating to another supplier.
The forging costs depend on how long the production run is (the fewer the parts the higher the part price to amortize tooling costs). Typically it was possible to have multiple pistons designs for a common forging so costs would have been lower.
For something as basic as a xylan coated A2618 forged piston my guess is the price would probably have been around 1000 gbp per part.
I think all manufacturers use inconel exhausts and that price sounds about right for a complex hydroformed manifold with welded encapsulated insulation.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
In the NA era a manufacturer would have paid a supplier for the forged blank then machine, shot peen and polish in-house then send the piston away for surface coating to another supplier.
The forging costs depend on how long the production run is (the fewer the parts the higher the part price to amortize tooling costs). Typically it was possible to have multiple pistons designs for a common forging so costs would have been lower.
For something as basic as a xylan coated A2618 forged piston my guess is the price would probably have been around 1000 gbp per part.
I think all manufacturers use inconel exhausts and that price sounds about right for a complex hydroformed manifold with welded encapsulated insulation.
Economically speaking, who bears the brunt of that cost? The raw materials, the machining of the piston, the surface treatment, the metallurgy, the development costs are spread out across the suppliers, the teams, even the petrochemical companies developing the fuel have some share of that cost.
Those 3D printed pistons in the GT2 RS are $1,500 USD a piece.
Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula
Posted: 11 Dec 2020, 14:16
by 63l8qrrfy6
Do the rules say that the one engine mode must be the same for everyone?
More specifically, can Perez run a very aggressive mode knowing that the engine only needs to last one race or is he forced to run the same mode as the factory Mercs?
I know from first hand experience (designing with both) that the current MGUH's are significantly smaller than even the 2013 80bhp KERS motors. They were 1st generation technology that were added to existing engines, the 2014 MGU-H's are 4th-5th generation designs that were designed to be fully integrated.
I spent a good few years of my life designing and packaging this stuff so I do know exactly what I'm talking about
Yet this 2014 MGUH looks bigger than that 2011 MGUK
