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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 21 Jul 2017, 23:49
by dr_cooke
Wazari wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:25
fellowhoodlums wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 20:22
It's pretty much on record there is an update Sept/Oct. Mexico is last race in that timeline but I would have thought 3rd last race is pretty late to aim for. I am thinking Suzuka is the target for obvious reasons, perhaps Malaysia for it's first run out in FP.
On a technical note, what's the differences between spec2 and 3 then 3 and 4? I was under impression spec 3 was purely core reliability (allowing full exploitation of existing PU, ie more power output). Is spec 4 the pre-chamber stuff? I'm not technical but interested.
I fully expected "Spec 4" to be implemented right after summer break but now I'm not sure since time and resources were spent on "Spec 3" which I did not expect. Spec 3 is relatively minor updates to Spec 2, (intake, MGU-H, mapping, etc). Spec 4 at this point would be a big update. New CC, pistons, turbine, compressor, cam profile, mapping, MGU-H, etc.
Would you be happy with Spec 4 having 30 reliable HP more than current spec? Or would there be more to expect?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 00:00
by Wazari
dr_cooke wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:49
Would you be happy with Spec 4 having 30 reliable HP more than current spec? Or would there be more to expect?
I don't think happy would be the right term and I don't know exactly what the increase has been since Melbourne, but I would expect 45 to 50 kWh increase since then.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 01:44
by HPD
Wazari wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:25
I fully expected "Spec 4" to be implemented right after summer break but now I'm not sure since time and resources were spent on "Spec 3" which I did not expect. Spec 3 is relatively minor updates to Spec 2, (intake, MGU-H, mapping, etc). Spec 4 at this point would be a big update. New CC, pistons, turbine, compressor, cam profile, mapping, MGU-H, etc.
Do not be surprised, it is the cause of the pressure mclaren. It seems that spec 3 is an incomplete job.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 01:59
by godlameroso
There's no chance that "spec 3" is to lay the groundwork for "spec 4"? A way of saying, "ok this works, and this works, and this doesn't work so well, but should if we try this, although it may make something else that works well, work not so well anymore, but if we can compensate by making such and such part better we can end up with a net gain." Engine chess so to speak.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 04:38
by diffuser
ziggy wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 18:16
diffuser wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 15:55
I keep think about this Youtube Video where someone person in Japan is performing a test to see if he pretends to lose his wallet how many times will it be returned. I think he did the test 25 times and 25 times it was returned and contents hadn't been altered. All that to say I tend to take Hasegawa at his word.
They started a very ambitious project last year(completely new PU in 6 months) and made alot of mistakes. Based on our 2016 experience we know the 2018 will be much more reliable than 2017 and more power.
Did you miss the part where Hasegawa states in between the lines tha honda still doesen't have a "full car dyno"?
So you're saying that is the cause of all the problems?
Maybe ...Maybe that gets putinto the UK plant.
On the other hand they didn't have 1 going into 2016 either.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 08:33
by restless
Wazari wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 00:00
dr_cooke wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:49
Would you be happy with Spec 4 having 30 reliable HP more than current spec? Or would there be more to expect?
I don't think happy would be the right term and I don't know exactly what the increase has been since Melbourne, but I would expect 45 to 50 kWh increase since then.
Do you think 50KW increase since Melburn?
Is thats right, that would mean at least half of increase is not from "updates" directly, but through unlocking the potential in spec1?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 11:40
by Singabule
It is reliability that bought the power. Do you forget that Hasegawa insist that spec 1 has more power than honda spec 3.5 2016 engine? Off course it is on dyno, but integration issue force them to reduce the output miles away. 50kw increase just too brutal even with New CC, half of it coming from fixing reliability.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 13:31
by ziggy
diffuser wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 04:38
ziggy wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 18:16
diffuser wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 15:55
I keep think about this Youtube Video where someone person in Japan is performing a test to see if he pretends to lose his wallet how many times will it be returned. I think he did the test 25 times and 25 times it was returned and contents hadn't been altered. All that to say I tend to take Hasegawa at his word.
They started a very ambitious project last year(completely new PU in 6 months) and made alot of mistakes. Based on our 2016 experience we know the 2018 will be much more reliable than 2017 and more power.
Did you miss the part where Hasegawa states in between the lines tha honda still doesen't have a "full car dyno"?
So you're saying that is the cause of all the problems?
It's not the cause of the problems, but those problems could be identified and solved a lot sooner. Offcourse I don't know exactly what hardware is used by Honda, but we can tell from Hasegawas words that it isn't a full chassis simulator/test rig.
diffuser wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 15:55
Maybe ...Maybe that gets putinto the UK plant.
On the other hand they didn't have 1 going into 2016 either.
It's how you look at it. Maybe they did. The Mp4-30
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 15:29
by Craigy
diffuser wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 04:38
Maybe ...Maybe that gets putinto the UK plant.
The new Honda Milton Keynes building is smaller than you probably imagine.
It's also become clear to me that the existing (old) Mugen-Honda building across the street is no longer in constant use - the new one is a replacement rather than an addition, I think.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 19:35
by GoranF1
Andy Cowell: I bet Honda will improve quickly.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 22:28
by dr_cooke
Wazari wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 00:00
dr_cooke wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:49
Would you be happy with Spec 4 having 30 reliable HP more than current spec? Or would there be more to expect?
I don't think happy would be the right term and I don't know exactly what the increase has been since Melbourne, but I would expect 45 to 50 kWh increase since then.
Ouch! That h!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 22:55
by Wazari
godlameroso wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 01:59
There's no chance that "spec 3" is to lay the groundwork for "spec 4"? A way of saying, "ok this works, and this works, and this doesn't work so well, but should if we try this, although it may make something else that works well, work not so well anymore, but if we can compensate by making such and such part better we can end up with a net gain." Engine chess so to speak.
Actually that's a good point. Some updates can be building blocks for the future "whole". However, in this case, I don't believe they are except for the MGU-H update.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 22:58
by Wazari
restless wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 08:33
Do you think 50KW increase since Melburn?
Is thats right, that would mean at least half of increase is not from "updates" directly, but through unlocking the potential in spec1?
Yes that's my "educated" guess. IMO quite a bit less than half of the overall future gain would be from "Spec 2" updates.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 23:00
by Wazari
dr_cooke wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 22:28
Wazari wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 00:00
dr_cooke wrote: ↑21 Jul 2017, 23:49
Would you be happy with Spec 4 having 30 reliable HP more than current spec? Or would there be more to expect?
I don't think happy would be the right term and I don't know exactly what the increase has been since Melbourne, but I would expect 45 to 50 kWh increase since then.
Ouch! That h!
Sorry, did not mean to offend.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Jul 2017, 23:54
by makecry
GoranF1 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2017, 19:35
Andy Cowell: I bet Honda will improve quickly.
And we have heard that before too.