Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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astracrazy
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Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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marcush. wrote:Newey is putting forward a straight comment? I know him speaking in words like probably ...you could argue ....etc..
He says 'Renault have clearly designed their car around the exhaust so they must, I imagine, be concerned.'

He also says that the exhaust set up they have was involved in the research of the car from very early on and they have never taken it off. Ferrari and Merc will be less effected than we are and Mclaren may also be less effective. We designed and developed the car around it. The others fitted it for the first race.

Note form their but facts taken out from the horses mouth.

doink
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Joined: 22 May 2011, 22:51

Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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astracrazy wrote:
marcush. wrote:Newey is putting forward a straight comment? I know him speaking in words like probably ...you could argue ....etc..
He says 'Renault have clearly designed their car around the exhaust so they must, I imagine, be concerned.'

He also says that the exhaust set up they have was involved in the research of the car from very early on and they have never taken it off. Ferrari and Merc will be less effected than we are and Mclaren may also be less effective. We designed and developed the car around it. The others fitted it for the first race.

Note form their but facts taken out from the horses mouth.
Interesting comments from Newey, but that makes plenty of sense from what we already know. It'll be an interesting race, but I suspect rather anti-climatic in the context of this this thread.

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Princey
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Joined: 26 May 2011, 18:44
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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astracrazy wrote:I think in p1 or p2 (valencia) vettel was running a map which will be used for silverstone - be interesting if we can see how much slower he was
It was P1 and he was 3 seconds off the pace being set at that time by the others in P1. Obviously we don't know fuel loads etc at that point but it was a lot slower than those with the full blown diffusers.
Don't Kanye me. Or I'll Chris Brown you and Tiger Woods your mother.

DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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First off, here's Newey's comments.
Newey expects rivals to gain from exhaust clampdown

Adrian Newey: "I think probably that Ferrari and Mercedes will be less affected than we are"

Red Bull chief technical officer Adrian Newey expects Mercedes and Ferrari to benefit most from the clampdown on off-throttle exhaust blown diffusers at the British Grand Prix, and admitted RB7's loss of performance will be significant.

All the teams use exhaust gases to enhance the performance of their diffusers and most have developed elaborate engine maps to maintain a constant stream of gases to the rear of the car, even when the driver is off the throttle. At the British Grand Prix the sport's governing body will restrict off-throttle exhaust blowing to 10% of full throttle, which should result in a decrease in performance for all of the front-running teams.

Red Bull initially questioned the decision to make such a significant rule change mid-season and Newey is concerned it could give some of its rivals an advantage.

"We've got a regulation change, let's face it," Newey told BBC Sport. "How that is going to affect us compared to the others is difficult to tell. Lotus Renault, they're the ones who have clearly designed their car around the exhausts, so they I would imagine must be concerned. We designed our car around the exhaust in as much as we had the exhaust solution that you see on the car from very early on in the research of RB7.

"So we've never taken it off before and we don't know how that is going to affect us compared to our direct competitors. I think probably that Ferrari and Mercedes will be less affected than we are, McLaren may also be less affected. We designed and develop the car around it the others fitted it basically for the first race."

The change will lessen the amount of downforce the drivers have off throttle and could change the balance of the car on corner entry as a result. Despite Red Bull testing different engine maps on Sebastain Vettel's car in Friday practice at Valencia, Newey said the full affect of the rule change is still unknown.

"We've done some simulation, but we haven't actually run it on the track yet and we don't know how much it will affect the balance of the car," he said. "That's where simulation tends to fall down as you need a real car going round a real track with a real driver. It's significant, but I don't want to put a number on it because I don't know if that number is bigger or smaller than others."

McLaren's Lewis Hamilton is concerned that his team will be hit hard by the rule change and that he could experience a step back in performance at his home grand prix.

"When you go to Silverstone the desire to win is even greater because it is your home race, and the fans are spectacular," he said. "But we're not fast enough, and with the regulations changing I personally think we're going to make another step backwards. I'm a little bit nervous about it. I think we might be affected more than the two teams ahead of us [Red Bull and Ferrari]. It will be even worse for us."
http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 52824.html

One word of caution, that whenever any representative of any team speaks, remind yourself that the person making comments is being paid a huge chunk of cash to promote their team. I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but sometimes reality is stretched to further a company's agenda.

Yea, everyone will be affected, including the teams that designed this system as an integral part of the car, versus adding it on after the design was frozen.

And some drivers are already laying the groundwork for excuses for what they expect to be a poor second half of this season.

For myself, we will discover the truth in less than two weeks, I'm patient.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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mep
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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Before the Valencia race start claimed Norbert Haug that Mercedes GP will be most affected. I assume its the same for McLaren then because they use the same engine. The race seemed to prove this statement. It also gets some credibility by the fact that Mercedes performed better during qualy than in the race this year. The Valencia race might not be that representative to judge who suffers most because some teams (like Renault) might still have used the function while some others might have already tested without it (Mercedes).

I agree to DaveKillens, everybody will suffer most now in front of the media. Maybe except RedBull. Seems they don’t care much about the ban. I also suspect that Ferrari is going to profit from it and might have pushed FIA to ban it because they didn’t got the system to work like others did.

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Byronrhys
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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mep wrote:Before the Valencia race start claimed Norbert Haug that Mercedes GP will be most affected. I assume its the same for McLaren then because they use the same engine. The race seemed to prove this statement. It also gets some credibility by the fact that Mercedes performed better during qualy than in the race this year. The Valencia race might not be that representative to judge who suffers most because some teams (like Renault) might still have used the function while some others might have already tested without it (Mercedes).

I agree to DaveKillens, everybody will suffer most now in front of the media. Maybe except RedBull. Seems they don’t care much about the ban. I also suspect that Ferrari is going to profit from it and might have pushed FIA to ban it because they didn’t got the system to work like others did.
Its going to be a big lotto really, we have Mclaren saying the will not be affected as much as RB then we have them saying the will be affected most, we have Newey saying that MGP, and Ferrari wont be affected as much then we have MGP coming out saying they will be then we have him saying they Renault will be affected most then Allison says they wont be affected much.... F1.. so much politics lol.

CHT
CHT
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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Here is how I read AN's interview.

It is very tactical interview by RBR to discourage their rival teams from throwing in the towel, so that their rival will continue to waste resources to try to catch up RB7. While RBR themselves could divert more resources to develop 2012 challenger.

I wont be surprise that once WDC and WCC is in the bag, AN will stop attending races.

marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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as I imagined Neweay is very speculative in his wording with lots of imagine ,could and ifs..a vague digging in the mud to me.

He says they don´t know how it is affecting them after trying it in FP1...yes because he does not know how much it will affect the others.

They have no data about their competitors only an idea hof how much work it was to make their solution work on their car.If there was no issue with corner entry insdtability .Nobody would have started developping cold or hot blowing .I´m sure Renault was not amused when Newey came up with that one.

So in the end we know that we don´t know.Maybe it´s going down to which drivers can live best with a nervous and snappy car in corner entry...
So at Mclaren the tip swings in favour of Hamilton for example.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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Force X is being channeled to create pressure Y.

Only the team concerned can say what they lose. It will be hard to second guess who does what, as even Mercedes and Mclaren have been running different engine maps to suit the very different designs.

What you can say is who's design is most efficient. Red Bull created this, and they would probably be more advanced at using it than others.
How their design concept dovetails with the EBD is the real matter of how it will affect the performance.

In this area, it seems to me Mercedes stand more to gain as they blow the top of the floor. Its more innefficient than either Renault, Red Bull, Ferrari or McLarens concepts as the exhaust gasses come from further(midships) losing alot of the energised flow. Without the figures its speculative, but it seems to stand to reason.

Finally, its also a question of car balance. With the added downforce brought on by off throttle EBD, cars have been designed with the mandatory weight distribution in mind. By removing the off throttle blowing, cars will lose alot of balance in the slower corners due to the pressure no longer being applied. Some more than others.
In this particular area, Mercedes stand the most to lose as they run a comically short wheel base. So there is a plus and minus for Mercedes, but better than 4th best team they wont be IMO
Status quo for the rest with a small gain from Ferrari who apparently rely less on EBD than either Red Bull or McLaren.
More could have been done.
David Purley

donskar
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Re: Mclaren to suffer the most with EBD banned?

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It is rare that any important figure in F1 gives a truly spontaneous interview. All the top teams have PR "handlers" who prepare "scripts" that are presented to the media. It is quite probable that Newey and Hamilton were repeating the "party line."

We don't know who will be hurt most, but history tells us that Newey is a master at adapting to new rules. I expect RBR to suffer a dip in performance, possibly even lose a race or two :shock: but then normal service will be resumed.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill