2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

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Here's something a bit different 2T-wise, & applicable to flight.. http://users.breathe.com/prhooper/
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

Image

And here is a far superior autogyro undergoing anti tank trials.
It completed the trials successfully.
This is the Wallis W116 with a 90hp air cooled flat four four stroke.
It has a proven performance as follows.
Four times the range of an Apache gunship.
Far more manoeuvrable.
Faster and with almost zero heat signature.
On exercise it was brought into action from the rear of a C130 in three minutes an Apache takes three weeks.
It can operate from the deck of a 30ft patrol craft (sea trials completed)
Autonomous unpiloted version available.
Electric version with an hours operational time in development.
For the price of one Apache you can have 10,000 of these.
Easy to fly most stable non airship aircraft ever.

The two stroke engine you show has been tried both direct drive and geared in the Wallis.
High rpm two strokes do not have the thrust response of a good four stroke for this application.
Geared down the gear system jerks and in use the engine screams like a car stuck in first gear.
The four stroke engines we used were far superior in real operations (not amateur fun use).
Ken Wallis made his own wooden propellers and rotors which had an unlimited fatigue life.
The alloy prop you show is nowhere near as good and with the engine shown would be exceeding its tip speed limits at anything like full power.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

J.A.W. wrote:Here's something a bit different 2T-wise, & applicable to flight.. http://users.breathe.com/prhooper/
Goes part of the way and is close to the developments shown by Manolis with his through scavenged opposed piston two strokes etc.
However they both miss a fundamental part of my two stroke concept.
All the engine manufacturers of any note are building light aero engines today for drone use.
The reason is that they do not have to spend millions and navigate through the huge regulatory obstacles placed in their way when trying to develop a light aero engine for ordinary manned aircraft.
Wallis has been developing light aero engine applications within this draconian system for over 40 years.
I cannot think of a suitable light engine we have not tried.
I think we gained a little experience and results.
At present the range of these drones is over exaggerated because they have no pilot weight.
The Wallis W116 has a similar if not better range with a pilot and payload.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

A-G, I have to remark - that pic you posted looks oddly like a `60s James Bond movie prop Airfix kitset..
& the mill appears suspiciously like the ancient unit that..
.. A. Hitler contracted his good mate F. Porsche to make & motivate his VW..

Here is a modern German 2T mill that would most likely be far more suitable.. ..inc gearbox..
http://www.hirth-motoren.de/en/engine-3701.html
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

J.A.W. wrote:A-G, I have to remark - that pic you posted looks oddly like a `60s James Bond movie prop Airfix kitset..
& the mill appears suspiciously like the ancient unit that..
.. A. Hitler contracted his good mate F. Porsche to make & motivate his VW..

Here is a modern German 2T mill that would most likely be far more suitable.. ..inc gearbox..
http://www.hirth-motoren.de/en/engine-3701.html
The film was 'You only live twice'.
The aircraft shown is the sister W116 to 'Little Nelly' which starred in the film.
Ken Wallis flew Little Nelly in the film and doubled for Sean Connery.
In those days the stunt flying was real unlike the BS illusions used today.

We have used the rotax engine, it revs to fast.

Image

Vosper Thorneycroft undertook a complete marine evaluation of the W116.
There are many videos about the Wallis W116 on line.
Instead of allowing yourself to be deluded by Hollywood effects perhaps you should search for Wallis autogyro videos and wake up to reality.
The W116 has been serving official government and civil authorities for many years with great success.
The history of Wing Commander Ken Wallis MBE is online for all to see.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

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Might be useful for a fixed wing expendable drone.
As to the 'German' connection.
Ken Wallis' good friend Adolf Galland was fully in support of promoting the W116.
He even recommended the development of a modern four stroke engine for future models.
I consulted with pro drive to use their group N rally engine based on the flat four Subaru suitably modified to run direct drive under 4000 rpm turbocharged.
Such a combination would give over 200 reliable horsepower for use at over 20,000 feet.
Speed would be over 200 mph.
No other current autogyro could achieve these results.
Pro drive were in full support but Subaru refused to allow the use of their engine.
Car makers do not like to get involved with light aviation.
The cost of regulations for the project would be some 3 million pounds.
The CAA do not even have a category for autogyro flight and nobody at the CAA knows how an autogyro works.
That is the level of idiocy this country has descended into.
It is the FIA F1 debacle write large.
Oh how I wish this spell checker would stop underlining my words to show me they are not spelled in this ridiculous American English.

uniflow
uniflow
36
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:41 am

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

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Autogyro, I sorry I should have shown a better picture of the gyro engine. It's NOT a Rotax, it's an Autoflight 700cc twin ( with ballance shaft ), the output is geared from the center of the crankshaft and has a rubber damper inside ( like a motorcycle clutch. It weighs under 40kg ( including electric strart and intergral gearbox ) produces a lazy ( low port timings ) 80 HP @6200 RPM. Prop is carbon fiber.
The down side is it's a standard twostroke so is less than efficent on fuel. BUT I have been working on semi direct injection ( as you see earlier in this thread on several motorcycle engines ) transfer port injection, this has shown a 14 to 21% fuel saving for the same power output. The idea is to ultimately transfer this injection to the gyro engines. There is a three cylinder version as well.
I know a little of Commander Wallis.

Image
Last edited by uniflow on Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

A-G, you are correct about auto makers being wary about delving into general aviation..
Porsche really got their fingers burnt over aviation use of their air-cooled flat 6, ~20 years ago.

Here is another old Nazi-era device -somewhat conceptually akin to your naval usage..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP6VnbeWXSY
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

A modern clean-green & mean lightweight/high output 2-stroke is on the recent Cycle-World wish list..

See the 'Polaris GDI 800 Sport'.. http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/08/08/te ... the-future

& here is another current US 2T unit.. http://www.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.htm
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

Here's an example of 2T-tech that Honda have been sitting on - for a while now..
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ ... 15170.html
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

uniflow
uniflow
36
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:41 am

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

Yes I've seen all of the above but thankyou for posting them.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

Yeah, I figured you might've Uniflow.. ..& your stuff is pretty impressive, too..
Thought it best to collate the data on this thread, for reference purposes..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post

& If you've got stupid money..
..you can have this.. http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/02/ro ... he-street/

& one they did earlier.. ..100 RWHP - for an old 500cc twin cylinder road-bike, not too shabby..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjQgLsg9fs
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).