VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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GSBellew
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Right, but how do VW AG justify their premiums on higher brand like Audi in comparison to say Skoda?
It's called marketing, and is a very successful example of it. There is nothing new about it either, the very first WW Polo was a rebadged and cheaper version of the Audi 50. The simple fact is they are aimed at different markets & the market dictates the price. It would make no business sense whatsoever for them to pitch the various models from the VAG brands against each other.

Leonh
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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what audi gain from DTM is the image of having a car that looks vaguely like a road car pounding it round the track a bit like NASCAR but more like the road car than a few stickers placed on a plastic body.

xxChrisxx
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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GSBellew wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Right, but how do VW AG justify their premiums on higher brand like Audi in comparison to say Skoda?
It's called marketing, and is a very successful example of it. There is nothing new about it either, the very first WW Polo was a rebadged and cheaper version of the Audi 50. The simple fact is they are aimed at different markets & the market dictates the price. It would make no business sense whatsoever for them to pitch the various models from the VAG brands against each other.
Exactly. They are justified in their pricing because people will pay it.
When customers buy a car they aren't just buying the assembled materials.

I will admit the new A1 is a much nicer place to sit than a new Ibiza, but I wouldn't buy an Audi purely because the only people who drive Audi's now a days are twats.

A4, A6 and Q7 drivers have now taken over from BMW's as the biggest arseholes on the road award.
Which is the reason (as a life long VAG fan) i'm looking for a 3 series.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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Leonh wrote:what audi gain from DTM is the image ....
Yup all about image. Every manufacturer goes racing for image, and F1 should really be within this remit too.
GSBellew wrote: It's called marketing, and is a very successful example of it. There is nothing new about it either, the very first WW Polo was a rebadged and cheaper version of the Audi 50. The simple fact is they are aimed at different markets & the market dictates the price. It would make no business sense whatsoever for them to pitch the various models from the VAG brands against each other.
Of course it's marketing. What is ingenious is VW's vision for creating these markets. I believe it was Ferdinand Piech who pushed VW into the "perceived quality" stratosphere. What people touch and feel, they believe to be quality.
However, I have owned a VW and have come away disappointed by the gulf in expectation compared to reality. No bad car mind, Just expected more. I'm personally of the belief that Toyota are champions of meeting expectations from customers.

Just last week I was at Blackbushe car auctions, the amount of A4's, Passat's, Octavia's etc on auction was phenomenal. Most Diesel and most snapped up. Decent mile crunchers.
Yet on a dark side of the lot where 3 diesel Toyota Yaris. 1 was 7 years old and had 265,000 miles on the clock. The others had even more! Looking at them you wouldn't say they had done a mile over 60,000.
I missed out on a Polo TDI with just 700 miles on the clock because the woman bidding against me pulled lippy out of a Louis Vuitton handbag ....I waved the white flags there and then.

Marcush touched on the point that people buying cars now really don't give a monkeys what's under the hood. It's just gotta have something "blingy" , trendy or upmarket about it and CHA CHING! SALE! People are prepared to pay premiums, and if it's their money...who am I to argue? Most people just don't care.

Me? I'd take a Yaris diesel.... :mrgreen:
More could have been done.
David Purley

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ds.raikkonen
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:They already share some components and materials. Seat fibres, some electronics and bulbs.
There where 2 people in this world. Ones that bought mercs, and other that bought beemers.
.....or much less cost yet asking similar prices and you begin to see the logic of these 2 cooperating.

The enemy of my enemy, is my friend so the proverb goes.
Whoa, so it is happening. I never thought it was possible, but given the current downturn in Europe, any cost saving will be welcomed I guess. Common procurement is fine but platform sharing will be beyond a strategic alliance! VW has started some kind of a revolution with this architecture. Two bitter rivals like BMW and MB cooperating is amazing.
dumrick wrote:Mercedes is working in sharing platforms with Renault and BMW seems to be staying on their own, in terms of platforms, but is cooperating with other players in R&D and procurement.

Concerning the quality and difference of price issues, I fail to see how the modular platforms change the current situation: VW Group cars already share their mechanical components, these modular platforms will only increase their flexibility in terms of production and further increase their margins. As the costumer is concerned, the cars will still look and feel different.
That's exactly why VW has come up with this, to save costs during production and to meet regional demands faster by producing multi-brand classes on the same assembly line. The customers are not supposed to feel any difference inside and outside the car. I did hear the alliance between Renault-Nissan and Daimler for Smart and Twingo and the 4-cyl gasoline engines.
From Nissan-global webpage:
Daimler and the Renault-Nissan Alliance launched their strategic collaboration in April 2010, including an equity exchange that gives the Renault-Nissan Alliance a 3.1 percent stake in Daimler and Daimler a combined 3.1 percent interest in Renault and Nissan.

The collaboration began with three project pillars:

Joint smart/Twingo architecture: The project is on track for launch in the early first quarter of 2014. Two-seater smart vehicles will be produced at Daimler's plant in Hambach, France, and four-seater smart and Renault production are slated for Renault's plant in Novo Mesto, Slovenia.
All-new entry-level city van project for Mercedes-Benz: The project is on schedule with expected launch in late 2012.
Powertrain cross-supply: The Alliance is supplying Daimler with compact three-cylinder gasoline engines to be used in smart and Twingo vehicles and four-cylinder diesel engines to be used in the jointly developed light commercial vehicle and in Mercedes-Benz's next generation of premium compact cars. Daimler will supply Nissan and Infiniti with four- and six-cylinder gasoline and diesel engines from the current and future engine portfolio as well as with automatic transmissions.
Since its founding in April 2010, the collaboration has been gradually expanded. In addition to the announcement this week about North American engine production, the companies had also earlier decided to partner on:

Platform sharing: Infiniti plans to base a premium compact vehicle on the Mercedes compact-car architecture, starting in 2014.
Zero-emission vehicles: Daimler will provide batteries from its production facility in Kamenz, Germany, and Renault-Nissan will provide electric motors for the use in electric vehicles (smart and Twingo ZE). First releases will occur in 2014.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

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ds.raikkonen
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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:DTM has what relevance exactly? So Audi is clear as mud on this.
This is from an interview done by Racecar-Engineering with Dr. Wolfgang Ullrich:
What is the significance of the DTM for Audi?
The DTM makes it possible for us to be active in top-caliber motorsport close to the product – and largely in Audi’s home market Germany – which continues to be an important one for us.
How does the result in the DTM impact on the Audi brand?
Our customers and potential customers of course take note of success in motorsport. It automatically reflects on the sportiness of the brand. The best way to demonstrate your sportiness is to be – successfully – active in sport. Through our motorsport successes we can no doubt continue to positively influence Audi’s brand image.
The three German premium automobile manufacturers, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz, are competing against each other for the first time in 20 years. What are you expecting of the 2012 DTM? And not strictly speaking in a sporting sense.
This is a great opportunity for the DTM to yet again improve its position as one of the best touring car series. I personally believe that we’ve even got the chance to jointly get the world’s best touring car series off the ground. Obviously, this means that the three manufacturers will also have to work together a lot, aside from the competition on the track. My wish is that even during the racing season we’ll be able to continue to collaborate in the good spirit that existed for a whole year during our preparations.
How important would be – or is – the DTM as a topic in Japan and in the USA?
For Audi, the USA is no doubt very important. And Japan is a prestige market as well. This means that Audi has a strong interest in also being able to show its presence in these two countries that are important to the brand. The three manufacturers and the ITR are working together on taking the DTM to both Japan and the United States. But everyone should be clear about the fact that this is not something that will happen very quickly. It requires a lot of detailed work. If you want to turn this into a really good thing, you need patience and time.
So it is for the brand image, he is pretty clear about it. No track to road releveance here.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

noname
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:DTM has what relevance exactly? So Audi is clear as mud on this.
In DTM they racing (what they calling) A5, which even looks like A5. Under the bonnet is the engine much more similar to what they are selling.

Endurance racing gave, and still gives, them opportunity to develop technologies they can put on the road (just to name TFSI).
F1 focused on non-road relevant aero and with its high revving spec engine is of no interest for Audi (Baretzky is repeating this message frequently).

We may like it or no, but technological freedom they enjoying in Le Mans, and perspective of almost wide open rules from 2014 (with only available energy being limited) is just much more tempting for Audi.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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ds.raikkonen wrote:So it is for the brand image, he is pretty clear about it. No track to road releveance here.
Agree 100%.

@NoName
I refer you to ds.raikonnens last post.
More could have been done.
David Purley

noname
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:@NoName
I refer you to ds.raikonnens last post.
The quoted piece of interview does not contradicts to what I side earlier. One should also look at the whole article which was mainly about DTM as a marketing platform. Of course motorsport is being used by Audi for customer communication and building the brand image (they're proudly showing the numbers linking their victories with the perception of Audi as "sport brand"). However, apart from this, it is also being used for developing technologies they can transfer into "regular" production.

The placing of Audi Motorsport within the VAG, and the list of developments successfully put on the roads (and more will follow, just look at the fresh article presenting their LMP1 V6 or plans for next DTM engine) speak clear enough, I think.

From their point of view F1 is not the platform they are interested in. Good marketing opportunity but technologically too far away from reality.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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DTM offers Audi no relevant technologies to their range.

It's near as dammit a spec series. Thereby contrary to their "We only go racing if we can garner tech to use in our road cars" ethos.
What is on the Audi DTM machine that can be used on their road cars? Honest question.
More could have been done.
David Purley

RacingManiac
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As long as they cut weight on the new VAG platforms I am all for it. The first of the MQB car, the new A3, with AWD and diesel is only just a tad over 3000lb. Which while not light, is a pretty significant loss over the cars on the old platform. The MK6 Golf GTI is about 3100lb with no AWD....

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ds.raikkonen
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RacingManiac wrote:As long as they cut weight on the new VAG platforms I am all for it. The first of the MQB car, the new A3, with AWD and diesel is only just a tad over 3000lb
They have managed to shave-off around 130-150lb off the Golf 7 MQB chassis. I wonder how the new Golf GTi W12-650 would look like? :lol:
Image
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“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

cheapracer
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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What's so difficult to understand about Audi in DTM?

Audi - German race series

Holden - Oz race series

Chev - USA race series

etc, etc...

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ds.raikkonen
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Ok, this one is a bit off the topic but why do all the Quattro Audis understeer? I saw a video of the S5 and remembered the understeery nature of the RS series as well.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

allstaruk08
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Re: VW group's unique platform sharing architecture

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ds.raikkonen wrote:Ok, this one is a bit off the topic but why do all the Quattro Audis understeer? I saw a video of the S5 and remembered the understeery nature of the RS series as well.
i think its something to do with the engine position so far forward, i read it somewhere but cant remember where.