Formula E

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
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Scorpaguy
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Re: Formula E

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nzjrs wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:32 pm
Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:01 pm
I think the FE concept was brilliant...EV racing in city centers. But they totally blew it with the design of the cars. Why they picked a bad F1 knockoff that is way too fragile (and slow to even benefit from said design) instead of going with a 4WD WRC-esc theme that would allow for wheel to wheel hijinks is beyond me.
I think the cars aren't very fragile tbh, the racing is often quite good with a bit of bumping here and there.
Maybe no more fragile than other open wheelers...but said design often results in an off/DNF when "bumbing here and there". A sportscar type design that conquered Pikes Peak ala the Tajima Monster would be epic in tight quarters racing IMHO.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:01 pm
I think the FE concept was brilliant...EV racing in city centers. But they totally blew it with the design of the cars. Why they picked a bad F1 knockoff that is way too fragile (and slow to even benefit from said design) instead of going with a 4WD WRC-esc theme that would allow for wheel to wheel hijinks is beyond me.
FE cars are far from too fragile, actually a common critic was they´re too tough, and some drivers use it as a bumper car
What you´re asking for is a completely different competition, but it actually does exists, it´s called Extreme-E

But FE is single seater electric racing in tarmac, 4WD provide no benefit at all. Actually would make it boring as cars would go on rails even on slow gears.

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jjn9128
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Re: Formula E

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I don’t get some complaints about fe. Some says it’s too f1 like. Others not f1 enough. The problem I have with it atm, as with a lot of sport, is the referee/stewards are getting too involved in the outcome. So many penalties for apparently minor infractions.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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El Scorchio
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Re: Formula E

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The huge issue (poor tracks aside) I have is with what the cars look like. They are so ugly, and just look like a child designed them to look 'cool'. (and I agree they are used as bumper cars far too much)

The gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode are simply awful as well. Attack mode particularly is a huge dud. It doesn't seem to help with overtaking at all. It's just tactically taken as a short penalty loop in a point in the race to minimise loss of positions.

Maybe 10 year olds like it, but it's an incredible turn off for me. I think it could be a much more credible and compelling series with a big makeover, though.

However- it IS a positive that it's available on free to air television. (although I suspect that's partly because the rights are not very coveted at all)

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jjn9128
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Re: Formula E

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100% agree about fan boost but typically it doesn’t affect the outcome of a race so it’s fairly easy to ignore. Attack mode is a cool way to mix up the order and introduce strategy where there’s no pit stops. Much much better than drs imo.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:22 pm
The huge issue (poor tracks aside) I have is with what the cars look like. They are so ugly, and just look like a child designed them to look 'cool'. (and I agree they are used as bumper cars far too much)

The gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode are simply awful as well. Attack mode particularly is a huge dud. It doesn't seem to help with overtaking at all. It's just tactically taken as a short penalty loop in a point in the race to minimise loss of positions.

Maybe 10 year olds like it, but it's an incredible turn off for me. I think it could be a much more credible and compelling series with a big makeover, though.

However- it IS a positive that it's available on free to air television. (although I suspect that's partly because the rights are not very coveted at all)

Ironically when you´re saying people who like FE must be immature people (10 years olds), you´re proving to be the most immature here :P

Is it that difficult for people to keep respect? Assuming your point of view is the only valid and anyone disagreeing is wrong/immature/stupid is arrogance

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El Scorchio
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Re: Formula E

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:57 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:22 pm
The huge issue (poor tracks aside) I have is with what the cars look like. They are so ugly, and just look like a child designed them to look 'cool'. (and I agree they are used as bumper cars far too much)

The gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode are simply awful as well. Attack mode particularly is a huge dud. It doesn't seem to help with overtaking at all. It's just tactically taken as a short penalty loop in a point in the race to minimise loss of positions.

Maybe 10 year olds like it, but it's an incredible turn off for me. I think it could be a much more credible and compelling series with a big makeover, though.

However- it IS a positive that it's available on free to air television. (although I suspect that's partly because the rights are not very coveted at all)

Ironically when you´re saying people who like FE must be immature people (10 years olds), you´re proving to be the most immature here :P

Is it that difficult for people to keep respect? Assuming your point of view is the only valid and anyone disagreeing is wrong/immature/stupid is arrogance
That's fair. I was a bit flippant. How's this?

I feel they have made a big mis-step with the design of the cars. I think they look more like toys or video game vehicles than serious racing cars. I'm not sure whether they did it to try and give the series a unique look or appeal to young viewers, but it's a huge turn off for me because I think they look very tacky- especially the rear end. I don't think they should try and make them carbon copies of F1 chassis, but the gen 1 cars looked far better and more like proper racing machines, and these gen 2 ones are a step back. What is your opinion of the design of the cars?

I don't like the gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode. Fan boost I accept is trying to to a job and encourage people to use social media, but I think it's very naff, and the advantage from it amounts to nothing, so why is it there?
Attack mode has sound reasoning behind it, but it seems to be mainly used to defend and maintain a place rather than attack and gain places. It doesn't really encourage overtaking and adds nothing to a race that a long loop or something similar would. I'd prefer for the drivers to just have extra power (5m per race or something) that they can just use whenever they like or at least another mechanic that promotes easier overtaking and is actually used offensively. It's great the cars can follow so closely, but it often amounts to nothing more than a huge train, especially on the typical narrow tracks where overtaking without contact or an accident seems too difficult.

The on screen graphics are extremely intrusive and over busy. I would call them tacky and cheap, and they do materially affect my perceived quality of the product.

I feel they could make some changes, some big some small, which could really elevate the product. I don't really understand who they are trying to market the series toward, and I'm not sure they do either.

Happy to discuss.

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jjn9128
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Re: Formula E

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
That's fair. I was a bit flippant. How's this?

I feel they have made a big mis-step with the design of the cars. I think they look more like toys or video game vehicles than serious racing cars. I'm not sure whether they did it to try and give the series a unique look or appeal to young viewers, but it's a huge turn off for me because I think they look very tacky- especially the rear end. I don't think they should try and make them carbon copies of F1 chassis, but the gen 1 cars looked far better and more like proper racing machines, and these gen 2 ones are a step back. What is your opinion of the design of the cars?

I don't like the gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode. Fan boost I accept is trying to to a job and encourage people to use social media, but I think it's very naff, and the advantage from it amounts to nothing, so why is it there?
Attack mode has sound reasoning behind it, but it seems to be mainly used to defend and maintain a place rather than attack and gain places. It doesn't really encourage overtaking and adds nothing to a race that a long loop or something similar would. I'd prefer for the drivers to just have extra power (5m per race or something) that they can just use whenever they like or at least another mechanic that promotes easier overtaking and is actually used offensively. It's great the cars can follow so closely, but it often amounts to nothing more than a huge train, especially on the typical narrow tracks where overtaking without contact or an accident seems too difficult.

The on screen graphics are extremely intrusive and over busy. I would call them tacky and cheap, and they do materially affect my perceived quality of the product.

I feel they could make some changes, some big some small, which could really elevate the product. I don't really understand who they are trying to market the series toward, and I'm not sure they do either.

Happy to discuss.
I think that's a pretty fair assessment, it's not enough for me to stop watching but I definitely don't get the same buzz I used to ahead of F1 races. Problem about marketing motorsport right now is that the main audience is aging but they're trying to attract younger audiences, so there's a sort of mish-mash of presentation. They want to be young and hip but it's still presented like motorsport has been for decades.

I would add on graphics that if you have to watch in standard definition (in the UK the terrestrial TV channels FE is broadcast on are rarely HD and if you live in an area with poor internet speeds watching online just isn't an option) they're almost indiscernible - they're built for an 80" TV in 8k resolution.

Another annoyance for us in the UK is where it's broadcast changes week-to-week. Sometimes it's on the main BBC channels, sometimes BBC red button (601 = crap quality), sometimes quest, and sometimes only on BBC iplayer, and none of them advertise the race ahead of time.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

senja
senja
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Re: Formula E

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I like FE cars, and I'm not young viewer...
I like Gen2 more than Gen1. But Gen2 Evo was even better. Too bad they will not race it.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Formula E

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:19 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
That's fair. I was a bit flippant. How's this?

I feel they have made a big mis-step with the design of the cars. I think they look more like toys or video game vehicles than serious racing cars. I'm not sure whether they did it to try and give the series a unique look or appeal to young viewers, but it's a huge turn off for me because I think they look very tacky- especially the rear end. I don't think they should try and make them carbon copies of F1 chassis, but the gen 1 cars looked far better and more like proper racing machines, and these gen 2 ones are a step back. What is your opinion of the design of the cars?

I don't like the gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode. Fan boost I accept is trying to to a job and encourage people to use social media, but I think it's very naff, and the advantage from it amounts to nothing, so why is it there?
Attack mode has sound reasoning behind it, but it seems to be mainly used to defend and maintain a place rather than attack and gain places. It doesn't really encourage overtaking and adds nothing to a race that a long loop or something similar would. I'd prefer for the drivers to just have extra power (5m per race or something) that they can just use whenever they like or at least another mechanic that promotes easier overtaking and is actually used offensively. It's great the cars can follow so closely, but it often amounts to nothing more than a huge train, especially on the typical narrow tracks where overtaking without contact or an accident seems too difficult.

The on screen graphics are extremely intrusive and over busy. I would call them tacky and cheap, and they do materially affect my perceived quality of the product.

I feel they could make some changes, some big some small, which could really elevate the product. I don't really understand who they are trying to market the series toward, and I'm not sure they do either.

Happy to discuss.
I think that's a pretty fair assessment, it's not enough for me to stop watching but I definitely don't get the same buzz I used to ahead of F1 races. Problem about marketing motorsport right now is that the main audience is aging but they're trying to attract younger audiences, so there's a sort of mish-mash of presentation. They want to be young and hip but it's still presented like motorsport has been for decades.

I would add on graphics that if you have to watch in standard definition (in the UK the terrestrial TV channels FE is broadcast on are rarely HD and if you live in an area with poor internet speeds watching online just isn't an option) they're almost indiscernible - they're built for an 80" TV in 8k resolution.

Another annoyance for us in the UK is where it's broadcast changes week-to-week. Sometimes it's on the main BBC channels, sometimes BBC red button (601 = crap quality), sometimes quest, and sometimes only on BBC iplayer, and none of them advertise the race ahead of time.
Definitely agree. I really WANT to like it (because I really admire the motivation behind it, and it's heartening to see the major manufacturers involved) but it just doesn't feel bigtime- yet. And you're right in that the product and who it's for doesn't seem so clearly defined, which is a big hinderence. There's no doubt you have to capture young people, but if the adults in the house don't want to watch it, then it's not going to happen.

Also living in the UK, completely agree that the way it's bumped around on television is awful. You never know when or where it's on. It's never promoted. I only know if i happen to check BBC sport in the morning and there's an article about today's race. That also shows the rights holders are unsure about the product as well. If the BBC were serious, they'd commit to having them all on one of their channels, and they should be, given the relative dearth of rights they currently have. Eurosport show them all but I know that's very niche and not available to everyone. (Eurosport and Quest have the same parent company) But when the broadcasters don't treat the sport with respect, then viewers don't either. Love or hate Sky, but they treat and present every Grand Prix like a major event that you NEED to watch, and that makes it even more exciting. Even if the buzz outstrips the actual race sometimes.

The rights holders and FE administration really need to commit to something one way or another. I think my (perhaps unfair) condemnation for certain aspects of the product is because I KNOW it could be really good, and really popular with some tweaks which seem obvious to me. It's certainly 100% relevant to the future and there are clearly the makings of a very successful series there. I don't know if it's feasible to run the FE cars on full GP circuits (maybe it's not a good idea given the speed differential) but I'd really love to see them hop on some F1 race weekends if possible when crowds are back.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
That's fair. I was a bit flippant. How's this?
Much better, period :D

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
I feel they have made a big mis-step with the design of the cars. I think they look more like toys or video game vehicles than serious racing cars. I'm not sure whether they did it to try and give the series a unique look or appeal to young viewers, but it's a huge turn off for me because I think they look very tacky- especially the rear end. I don't think they should try and make them carbon copies of F1 chassis, but the gen 1 cars looked far better and more like proper racing machines, and these gen 2 ones are a step back. What is your opinion of the design of the cars?
I like them. Actually gen2 look much better than gen1 to me, gen1 looked like a weird gp3 car when FE is something new wich I think should be also different to any existing series.

I get your point tough, single seaters are all very similar, all based on huge wings, but that´s also the point I like. Exploring different ways to produce DF without those huge wings wich also cause lots of dirty air is great, I´m far from an aerodynamicist but I have the feeling they´re still using those huge wings just because the rulebook don´t allow any freedom in that field, with everything strictly regulated. But today aerodynamics have reached a point I think wings could be a thing of the past. It´s been more than 50 years evolving, but only in the tight direction FIA allows, I´m sure if they could build a car from scratch with total freedom, wings would be secondary as much

FE is exploring that... well, not exactly as they do not allow any change or new development (yet), but even if it´s still a spec car it´s designed in that direction, and I love that

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm

I don't like the gimmicks like fan boost and attack mode. Fan boost I accept is trying to to a job and encourage people to use social media, but I think it's very naff, and the advantage from it amounts to nothing, so why is it there?
Attack mode has sound reasoning behind it, but it seems to be mainly used to defend and maintain a place rather than attack and gain places. It doesn't really encourage overtaking and adds nothing to a race that a long loop or something similar would. I'd prefer for the drivers to just have extra power (5m per race or something) that they can just use whenever they like or at least another mechanic that promotes easier overtaking and is actually used offensively. It's great the cars can follow so closely, but it often amounts to nothing more than a huge train, especially on the typical narrow tracks where overtaking without contact or an accident seems too difficult.
Not a big fan of any of those, but attack mode provides some uncertainity factor, and fan mode I think is just a way to attract young audience and also to get the audience involved with the competition in some way

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
The on screen graphics are extremely intrusive and over busy. I would call them tacky and cheap, and they do materially affect my perceived quality of the product.
It could be more simple and smaller, agree with that

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
I feel they could make some changes, some big some small, which could really elevate the product. I don't really understand who they are trying to market the series toward, and I'm not sure they do either.
Young people, people who enjoy showing theirselves as green activists even if they are not :mrgreen: , people who enjoy new technologies like myself... just my guess obviously

El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:53 pm
Happy to discuss.
Agree with this too :D

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jjn9128
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Re: Formula E

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:53 pm
FE get around the dirty air issue by just not generating any downforce :lol:

An F1 car has SCz >>6.5 (17.7kN at 240km/hr) while the FE is SCz~ 1.7-2 (5kN at 240km/hr), less than 1/3 of the F1. They also only produce ~1/2 the drag. It's really not an aero-formula. The massive diffuser is mostly for show.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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Zynerji
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Re: Formula E

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:43 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:53 pm
FE get around the dirty air issue by just not generating any downforce :lol:

An F1 car has SCz >>6.5 (17.7kN at 240km/hr) while the FE is SCz~ 1.7-2 (5kN at 240km/hr), less than 1/3 of the F1. They also only produce ~1/2 the drag. It's really not an aero-formula. The massive diffuser is mostly for show.
:( :o :shock: :oops: :oops: :cry: :roll:

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JordanMugen
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Re: Formula E

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:22 pm
The huge issue (poor tracks aside) I have is with what the cars look like. They are so ugly, and just look like a child designed them to look 'cool'. (and I agree they are used as bumper cars far too much)
My issue with Formula E is that the vehicles are too darn lacklustre in terms of performance. Racing on tracks with overly tight chicanes only highlights this. Why not build electric formula cars capable of racing on regular circuits :?: -[If 30 min sprint races is the maximum range that is OK, just have three sprints races.]

Surely the whole hype around EVs is because they are fast? Tesla are promising their new Roadster EV to be one of the fastest hypercars in the world, every bit the match for hybrid hypercars.

Yet the Formula E cars are not even close to the pace of F2. Formula E does not live up to the hype of EVs being rocketships.
#-o

The Roadster needs a 880kg 200 kWh battery to be fast (in a straight line), and that's fine, that's no problem. Yet Formula E tries to make do with a piddly 54 kWh battery that, no doubt, contributes to the lacklustre nature of the vehicle's performance. If the Formula E car needs to weigh 1500kg or 2000 or 2500kg to be fast and have decent range, that is perfectly fine -- just do it (TM Nike). :D

For crying out loud, put a bigger battery in it and crank up the power!

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Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:43 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:53 pm
FE get around the dirty air issue by just not generating any downforce :lol:

An F1 car has SCz >>6.5 (17.7kN at 240km/hr) while the FE is SCz~ 1.7-2 (5kN at 240km/hr), less than 1/3 of the F1. They also only produce ~1/2 the drag. It's really not an aero-formula. The massive diffuser is mostly for show.
I´m sure there´s a term for what you just did, but my english is not good enough. Comparing something with the top of the world in that regard, and when you see it does not reach that level concluding it is not using that at all is some sort of falacy, period

F1 is the category wich provides more downforce in the whole planet, no other category get close, not even LMP1 as they need lower drag cars, so using that comparison you could say the same about any other category, GP2, GP3, DTM, Indy... none of them are really an aero-formula if you compare them with F1 numbers

But they are, anything increasing grip with speed is using aero, even if it´s just a bit. Without aero grip lowers with speed