2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Nando wrote:
beelsebob wrote:They changed the rules so that if a car is at all along side you you cannot move across to push them beyond the edge of the track. That's what happened, so the defender should have been punished in my mind.
No he actually never did that. In fact it would have been impossible to do.
Indeed it would, which is why the rule covers banging another car into a wall, as Senna did. IIRC it's phrased as the defending driver must give enough room for the overtaker to remain with 4 wheels on the track.
Squeeze him yes but he did not run him out of the track.
Squeezing into the wall is not allowed.
I think Senna had no idea Massa was coming up there, and was simply running the original line trying to straighten the braking zone as much as possible.
Yes indeed he was – that's the reasoning the FIA gave for letting him off. But, as I asserted up-thread a little, I don't see why ignorance is an excuse – again, it's a driver's job to know what's around him.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

beelsebob wrote:Indeed it would, which is why the rule covers banging another car into a wall, as Senna did. IIRC it's phrased as the defending driver must give enough room for the overtaker to remain with 4 wheels on the track.
And both did, both were inside the track limits, Massa did not hit any wall at all.
beelsebob wrote:Squeezing into the wall is not allowed.
Nobody hit a wall and FIA deemed nobody had squeezed anyone. It was a simple race incident.
beelsebob wrote:Yes indeed he was – that's the reasoning the FIA gave for letting him off. But, as I asserted up-thread a little, I don't see why ignorance is an excuse – again, it's a driver's job to know what's around him.
Seems like for once it was a good reasoning imo.
This is Senna we are talking about, one of the most honest straight up guys you will ever find in the paddock.

It´s a driver´s job to find the brakes as well and staying on track, not always they do that either.
Sure it´s the driver´s job to know that but he does not have eyes in his neck so it´s up to Massa to initiate a safe pass.
Senna´s eyes will be focused straight ahead so he can stop his own car.

He never touched the wall, he according to FIA never squeezed him, massa passed, case closed,
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Nando wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Indeed it would, which is why the rule covers banging another car into a wall, as Senna did. IIRC it's phrased as the defending driver must give enough room for the overtaker to remain with 4 wheels on the track.
And both did, both were inside the track limits, Massa did not hit any wall at all.
Yes he did, his front wheel was bashed by Senna, causing him to lose control, and have his rear left hit the wall.
beelsebob wrote:Squeezing into the wall is not allowed.
Nobody hit a wall and FIA deemed nobody had squeezed anyone. It was a simple race incident.
Wrong – the FIA deemed that Bruno squeezed Massa, but that he didn't know he was there, and therefore let him off.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

beelsebob wrote:Yes he did, his front wheel was bashed by Senna, causing him to lose control, and have his rear left hit the wall.
No he bashed his front wheel against Senna, Senna was going in another direction looking in another direction.
And he never hit the wall with any tire.
He lost control of the car because he stomped on the brakes and probably lost the rear end.
beelsebob wrote:Wrong – the FIA deemed that Bruno squeezed Massa, but that he didn't know he was there, and therefore let him off.
Then he can´t have squeezed him. Squeezing someone is intentional, otherwise it´s just a gap that gets smaller because as you say Senna had no idea he was there.

you can´t squeeze someone that you don´t know is there.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

zyphro
zyphro
1
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 3:33 pm

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Nando wrote:
you can´t squeeze someone that you don´t know is there.
I agree: squeezing someone would be aligning your driving line to ensure the gap between the two drivers involved decreases (i.e. he'd have to know he was there).

Timbit
Timbit
0
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:31 pm

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Footage of the event from onboard, normal and overhead shots, if anyone's interested:

http://youtu.be/_a3MSoVcELI

I would embed it, but I actually do not know how.

Edit: This one is of better quality:

http://youtu.be/KNYj7NXvTdw

Things to note:

- Did Massa have all 4 wheels off the circuit (i.e. did he cut the corner and gain a speed advantage?)
- Did Senna take the racing line as judged by the FIA?
- Did Massa make contact with the barriers?
- Did Massa make contact with Senna?
- Was Senna expecting Massa there, and if not (or even if so), did Senna move when Massa was along side him?

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:58 pm
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Timbit wrote:I would embed it, but I actually do not know how
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a3MSoVcELI[/youtube]

You simply put the URL into the youtube tags that are provided in the forum editor.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

OblongCheese
OblongCheese
0
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:39 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Even Brundle while commentating made the comment "that is not an overtaking zone" BEFORE the incident - obviously Senna NEVER expected to see Massa on his left, thus should not be given a penalty - as has occurred.

The end result was that even though it wasn't an overtaking zone, Senna did see Massa at the last second and pulled off the racing line allowing Massa through and the overtake was a success. I don't understand what Massa is crying about. He wanted to pull off a ballsy overtaking move in an unusual place and he did just that!

User avatar
ParanoiD
0
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:42 pm

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

beelsebob wrote:So lewis confirmed that he was just cruising round and that he had a lot more pace available to him if Vettel ended up pushing harder. Such a disapointment for him.
he said....
Ay Carumba!

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

ParanoiD wrote:
beelsebob wrote:So lewis confirmed that he was just cruising round and that he had a lot more pace available to him if Vettel ended up pushing harder. Such a disapointment for him.
he said....
Do you have any reason to doubt it? From where I was sat, I was noting the gap shrinking to 1.2, and then lewis immediately putting a lap in that took it straight back up to 2.0, three laps later, exactly the same thing again. That looks exactly like cruising round with a lot of pace in your pocket.

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

I think we have to be careful with what it actually means (rather than if he actually meant it).

By this I mean - did the McLaren have enough tyre life in hand? Maybe Lewis HAD to cruise - rather than cruising because of the luxury of pace.

Look at JB's pace for example. He was able to take over a second a lap out of Vettel and Hamilton towards the end of the first stint after serious management of the tyres early on, and in the 2nd stint he was also managing with a view to making a 2-stopper work. But when it turned into a sprint race for the last 20 laps, Button was initially able to maintain the gap consistently, before then falling back.

I'm not saying this is what's happening - I'm just saying that it's a possible.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

raymondu999 wrote:I think we have to be careful with what it actually means (rather than if he actually meant it).

By this I mean - did the McLaren have enough tyre life in hand? Maybe Lewis HAD to cruise - rather than cruising because of the luxury of pace.

Look at JB's pace for example. He was able to take over a second a lap out of Vettel and Hamilton towards the end of the first stint after serious management of the tyres early on, and in the 2nd stint he was also managing with a view to making a 2-stopper work. But when it turned into a sprint race for the last 20 laps, Button was initially able to maintain the gap consistently, before then falling back.

I'm not saying this is what's happening - I'm just saying that it's a possible.
That's true, though I'm pretty confident they had the pace available – I called before the race that laps 12 and 34 were the laps to change for 2 stoppers, and those were pretty much exactly the timings McLaren were on for. I have no doubt that Lewis was keeping Vettel close exactly because it was better to have tyres available in case of a safety car, but ultimately, that means that Lewis was up front able to choose exactly how close Vettel got – exactly between a 1 and 2 second window. To me, if Lewis' gearbox hadn't blown, he was on for an easy win.

Remember also that Lewis had found significantly more pace in the car than Button.

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

beelsebob wrote:Remember also that Lewis had found significantly more pace in the car than Button.
But wasn't able to keep them in as long as Button - who stopped 2/3 laps later than Hamilton.

While I did see that Lewis was able to just pace himself and manage the gap, here's some food for thought:
Vettel wrote:I think I was fairly close to him, so obviously the closer you get, it's a bit of a disadvantage but I try to keep the gap fairly much the same, lap by lap. I didn't really mean to close the gap, because I know that the closer I get, the more grip I lose, and obviously I will lose tyres just by running close to him and losing downforce so I think it was a tactical race in the beginning, especially the beginning of the second stint after the first pit stop.
I think it's entirely plausible that while Lewis was pacing himself, Vettel was also pacing himself to maintain a gap rather than close down on Lewis, because we've seen this year how traffic can be so bad for you - you lose temperature in the tyres, you lose downforce, you slide more, your tyres start wearing out quicker... etc etc.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

Timbit wrote:
Things to note:

- Did Massa have all 4 wheels off the circuit (i.e. did he cut the corner and gain a speed advantage?)
- Did Senna take the racing line as judged by the FIA?
- Did Massa make contact with the barriers?
- Did Massa make contact with Senna?
- Was Senna expecting Massa there, and if not (or even if so), did Senna move when Massa was along side him?
-He did, barely, but he did. Notice that Senna actually did the very same thing as Massa, but the latter stayed at the inside of the corner.
-Probably did, but the rules do say you have to leave one car width between your car and the edge of the track. I am not sure though if this applies in general, or only when you made your one defensive move and then go back to the racing line.
-I don't think he did.
-Yes they made clearly contact; due the squeezing of Senna, the front wheel of Massa touched the sidepod of Senna. Barely, but it was a touch, and it made Massa his car extremely slippery.
-Massa did certainly move alongside him. I don't think it matters if Senna saw him or not; you should always be aware of your surroundings.
#AeroFrodo

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: 2012 Singaporean GP - Marina Bay

Post

raymondu999 wrote:But wasn't able to keep them in as long as Button - who stopped 2/3 laps later than Hamilton.
He kept them as long as Vettel though.

Seems they kept him out a tad longer just to create a better tire life at the end of the race.

To me it was pretty clear how he controlled the race. Soon as Vettel pushed he simply responded until Vettel had to go in for tires.
We never really saw him with the Soft tires before the gearbox failed.

Hamilton never complained about rear deg/wear while Button did before Qualifying i think.
Only thing i remember he said was he had a funny feeling in the tires but that was on SS i believe.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."