Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

[Nando]

I get it, only certain overtakes count. DRS overtakes is fine, proper hardcore ones at the end of lap 1 is not.

Your statistics is severely flawed.

[Cylinder]

I said "Better overtaker"
"you are gonna sit here and tell me Jenson button is a better overtaker"
"I said "Better overtaker"

So it's very simple, did I tell you Jenson Button was a better overtaker or not?

Hold on, Before you start backtracking, dont forget to miss the whole point of my argument towards you.


As i said before, stats can be pulled out of box to show all sorts, enjoy looking at the numbers, but dont try and delude yourself into thinking they make your man somekind of senna like overtaker.

Here are my stats. Vettel got out qualified 9 times by Mark Webber.

Alonso and Hamilton only got qualified 3 times.


Therefore Hamilton and Alonso are better qualifiers than Vettel.

How you like them stats?

Hope you understand the bit in bold son.

[mnmracer]

Hold on, Before you start backtracking, dont forget to miss the whole point of my argument towards you.

Right, how about you stop with your deceitful factual lies before you start pointing fingers.
If you admit that you purposefuly lied and tried to deceive, I will answer your point.

[bhall]

Do me a favor and quote me where I have uttered the words "best overtaker".

Top overtakers in 2012

1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]

Don't be disingenuous now. At least own up to your devices.

[mnmracer]

I get it, only certain overtakes count. DRS overtakes is fine, proper hardcore ones at the end of lap 1 is not.

The statistics of people that work with them is severely flawed.

Fixed that for you.

[Cylinder]

Hold on, Before you start backtracking, dont forget to miss the whole point of my argument towards you.

Right, how about you stop with your deceitful factual lies before you start pointing fingers.
If you admit that you purposefuly lied and tried to deceive, I will answer your point.

According to the stats, Hamilton and Alonso are better in Qualifying than Vettel Right?

Your team mate is your benchmark and Vettel got out qualified 9 times.

Alonso and Hamilton only 3 times.

So, you gonna question my stats?

[mbvinnie]

The whole thing about statistics is there should be some picking or choosing. That's the skill in analyzing. Just including everything often obscures the very trends and patterns you are looking for. You have to break it down.
And you can't have a pre-conceived outcome that you want to arrive at (that's like religion vs science).

At least someone understands.
This is the data set that is available, and this is an analysis of that data.

To be fair, I don't believe that it is an unbiased data set as it is, nor do I believe many outcomes can be drawn from it - I think it needs more revision for it to have greater usefulness.
I also don't think any absolute definitive answers are available regardless of how much we refine this dataset.

I don't believe that as it is it shows that any one driver is a better overtaker than anyone else.
I do believe is shows that the talk of VET being unable to overtake is unreasonable.

[Nando]

you're not listening. I WANT the Lap 1 overtakes (excluding Launch) included. I just don't think they are available.
You do have to select data carefully. Very rarely is an analysis run on 'everything' without looking into the data further. The key is to be careful, to be thorough and to not have a pre-determined outcome.

If you put in some time you could find out how every single overtake was done and where it was done.

I would suggest watching all the races and use this, http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/26/2 ... ap-charts/

To get an idea of who to follow. and probably narrow down the field to the Trio ALO, HAM and VET.

[mbvinnie]

According to the stats, Hamilton and Alonso are better in Qualifying than Vettel Right?

Your team mate is your benchmark and Vettel got out qualified 9 times.

Alonso and Hamilton only 3 times.

So, you gonna question my stats?

I don't consider this argument useful or valid.
It doesn't prove whether statistics are useful or not, all it proves is that statistics done badly are not useful.

[Nando]

Hold on, Before you start backtracking, dont forget to miss the whole point of my argument towards you.

Right, how about you stop with your deceitful factual lies before you start pointing fingers.
If you admit that you purposefuly lied and tried to deceive, I will answer your point.

You keep talking about lies and lies and lies.

In reality your first post is technically one massive LIE.

[mnmracer]

Do me a favor and quote me where I have uttered the words "best overtaker".

Top overtakers in 2012

1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]
1. Vettel
[...]

Don't be disingenuous now. At least own up to your devices.

Ok, so be a doll and say, list the youngest drivers to take pole, win a race, win championships etc.
And then see how you feel about yourself for quoting simple facts.

The fact you want to find bias behind everything that doesn't fit your agenda, is your problem.

[mnmracer]

Hold on, Before you start backtracking, dont forget to miss the whole point of my argument towards you.

Right, how about you stop with your deceitful factual lies before you start pointing fingers.
If you admit that you purposefuly lied and tried to deceive, I will answer your point.

You keep talking about lies and lies and lies.

In reality your first post is technically one massive LIE.

Really?
Show me, where did I say something factually untrue?

[mnmracer]

you're not listening. I WANT the Lap 1 overtakes (excluding Launch) included. I just don't think they are available.
You do have to select data carefully. Very rarely is an analysis run on 'everything' without looking into the data further. The key is to be careful, to be thorough and to not have a pre-determined outcome.

If you put in some time you could find out how every single overtake was done and where it was done.

I would suggest watching all the races and use this, http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/26/2 ... ap-charts/

To get an idea of who to follow. and probably narrow down the field to the Trio ALO, HAM and VET.

Those charts show that Hülkenberg overtook Alonso in lap 5.
It doesn't show that Nico overtook while Fernando was off-roading.
Ergo, not a valid source.

[Cylinder]

According to the stats, Hamilton and Alonso are better in Qualifying than Vettel Right?

Your team mate is your benchmark and Vettel got out qualified 9 times.

Alonso and Hamilton only 3 times.

So, you gonna question my stats?

I don't consider this argument useful or valid.
It doesn't prove whether statistics are useful or not, all it proves is that statistics done badly are not useful.

I dont remember asking you, let him fight his own battles.

And its one of the stupidest discussions ive seen on this forum, the answer is plain as day

Stats can be manipulated to show all sorts of outcomes.

So if you stand by the original stats above, then you'll have no problem with my stats, which are facts and not up for discussion.

Vettel outqualified 3 times the amount of times Hamilton and Alonso were this season, so Hamilton and Alonso are better in quali right.

[mbvinnie]

you're not listening. I WANT the Lap 1 overtakes (excluding Launch) included. I just don't think they are available.
You do have to select data carefully. Very rarely is an analysis run on 'everything' without looking into the data further. The key is to be careful, to be thorough and to not have a pre-determined outcome.

If you put in some time you could find out how every single overtake was done and where it was done.

I would suggest watching all the races and use this, http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/26/2 ... ap-charts/

To get an idea of who to follow. and probably narrow down the field to the Trio ALO, HAM and VET.

If I had all the races to watch and the time to do so, I think it would be interesting. The possibility of a much refined data set (INCLUDING lap 1 passes ) definitely exists.

I am surprised that there are not official statistics on this - it should be pretty easy from the sector times/positions etc for F1 to provide this information with minimal analysis - including what was due to DRS etc.